Heretic

[noobium]

Some day we should play together, the ultimate challenge! You can judge on your own. I even tried to join noobiums kingdom to see his greatness in action but sadly he rejected me and disbanded in like 7 weeks...

And the kingdom went on to be a pretty good warring kingdom in its own right, and merged into MRC this age. I don't give myself too much credit, but I'm glad I didn't let ****heads like you muck it up.

[MyNameIsMatija]

Before anyone gets any funny ideas, 9attacker 16defensive setups DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT, work, ok carry on.

[noobium]

They worked pretty well for CR with Elf/Halfer and Orc/Cleric.
They worked pretty well for FS.

They're not viable now, I'm just giving an example where attacking Clerics would make sense.
FS of course fails at reading comprehension.

[Bart of Sparta]

Bottom line: Heretic aint so good. Let's compare heretic to rogue:

Nightmare v Prop/AW/GA --> rogue wins
No thief losses vs 2x TD and +75% sci --> rogue wins (on 200 BPA + TDs has +300% tpa)
0% v 20% build allocation --> heretic wins
No wizzard losses --> meh, not as if you're losing thousands of wizzards anyways.
+1 stealth = +33% more ops
Successful spell casts get 50% of rune cost refunded --> quite useless if you're not going to succeed much anyways

I don't see how a personality that gives +300% tpa with minimal investment and has 3 of the most devastating ops in the game be compared to this rubbish pers.

[FATstrat]

Bottom line: Heretic aint so good. Let's compare heretic to rogue:

Nightmare v Prop/AW/GA --> rogue wins
No thief losses vs 2x TD and +75% sci --> rogue wins (on 200 BPA + TDs has +300% tpa)
0% v 20% build allocation --> heretic wins
No wizzard losses --> meh, not as if you're losing thousands of wizzards anyways.
+1 stealth = +33% more ops
Successful spell casts get 50% of rune cost refunded --> quite useless if you're not going to succeed much anyways

I don't see how a personality that gives +300% tpa with minimal investment and has 3 of the most devastating ops in the game be compared to this rubbish pers.

Thankyou... I couldn't be bothered to spell it out to these heretic-loving crazies

[RedPanda]

Heretic needs some type of thief op to make them special. But yea the rogue kinda has the upper hand in every instance especially in the case of an Elf.

Its a little late, but say sacrifice prisoners for a benefit or a type of spell would had been awesome.

[Cry0]

Bottom line: Heretic aint so good. Let's compare heretic to rogue:

Nightmare v Prop/AW/GA --> rogue wins
No thief losses vs 2x TD and +75% sci --> rogue wins (on 200 BPA + TDs has +300% tpa)
0% v 20% build allocation --> heretic wins
No wizzard losses --> meh, not as if you're losing thousands of wizzards anyways.
+1 stealth = +33% more ops
Successful spell casts get 50% of rune cost refunded --> quite useless if you're not going to succeed much anyways

I don't see how a personality that gives +300% tpa with minimal investment and has 3 of the most devastating ops in the game be compared to this rubbish pers.

Ah - very good/obvious point =P I think deep down I just really really want hybrids to be more viable. Grasping at straws with this heretic being a step towards that but not the full step.

Thankyou... I couldn't be bothered to spell it out to these heretic-loving crazies

That is because you never even attempted to make that point. All you said was halfer/heretic is the worst combo.

That is not even in the same ball park as saying a halfer/heretic A/T might as well go halfer/rogue.

What Bart pointed out was that the heretic personality in general is useless for a/t.

[Blue Mass]

Faery Heretic vs. Halfer Rogue, I think, the Faery Heretic would win. I never thought about it until you all brought it up. How would a heretic stack up vs. a rogue or mage? And the answer is Heretic would cast on a rogue until he or she could do thievery on the rogue. Rogues still lose thieves and Heretic can exploit that weakness. Against a mage a Heretic would do thievery on him until he or she could cast on them. In affect heretic would force a t/m to hunker down because I just realized that a heretic can be a t/m killer. Thanks I would have never realize that if you all wouldn't have brought up this topic of how one stacks up against the other. It just makes the heretic even more powerful than I already thought it was.

Rogue would kill wizards but at the same time would lose some and while that is happening the heretic is casting nightmares on that rogue and then fools gold. After the rogues' magic was weaken enough he or she would start the fire balls and nados. And after that the heretic would go free-for-all the rogue. It's a good choice for someone wanting to pick off tms with lots of honor. But of course any kingdom with t/ms with high honor wouldn't dare fight a kingdom that had heretics with the same amount of honor. They would be foolish if they did.

[Cry0]

How would the heretic NM a rogue?

Heretic has no inherent WPA advantage. The only reason mystics could NM was because they could 2x pump wizards and combined with science have a significant wpa advantage.

A heretic is going to have an incredibly difficult time making use of the ability to nightmare unless they run into kingdoms with awful WPA.

To really have effective hybrids, they need to mix race/personality perks.

Give mystics 2x wiz pump, but also give it to elf (non stackable though).

Give rogue 2x TD, but also give it to halfers (again non stackable).

Then you could run a Elf/Tactician and effectively have the WPA needed to do ops ditto w/ halfer.

Carries over to this heretic personality. You could be a elf/heretic w/ 2x wiz and actually be able to make use of the NM/50% spell refund.

[noobium]

Heretic to me seems a better fit for provinces that are willing to risk fails on thief/mage ops, than it is a strong thief/mage personality.
It does mean nightmares but of the possible heretics, only elf would land nm consistently. Everyone else has to put some extreme effort into raising wpa or exploiting a target's bad wpa to pull it off...
Though if you have lots of Heretic, 50% success on nm is still going to be substantial.

Problem of course is that it comes at the expense of picking warrior/tact which are far more consistent for attackers, and the races that would do best with heretic are already at a disadvantage with military strength.

What would be the drawback of Avian Heretic? That's where I was looking - crap military numbers but should be very effective against orcs and undeads, avians really well guarded against land chains. Landing nightmare would be problematic, but I can see ways to get around that in a longer war.

[RedPanda]

You guys are forgetting, heretics has no wizard losses on failed spells. Even without the x2 wizard train rate like the Mystics, they can keep training without any problems. Rogues have to prop theirs

The main problem about all this theory is skill.
There are even pure T/M cannot even hit 4rtpa and 4rwpa..... then there are some players are a one track mind they are a pure M or a pure T, T/M isnt in their vocabulary. Those players should not touch heretic.

[Bo To]

Did someone notice this:
Bonuses:
+30% Magic Science Effectiveness
+50% Runes Refunded on Spell Success
+30% Thievery Science Effectiveness
No thieves lost on failed ops
No wizards killed from failed spells

source:

The sci bonus wasn't mentioned in the changes.

EDIT: now when I look it closer the halfer has: Income Penalty Protection.

[MyNameIsMatija]

Heretic Hype!? :D

[StratOcastle]

Human heretics in my Virtual kingdom are now "The Trio of Doom, sometimes"!

ThisChangesEverything.com

[sand]

Also, Halflings have 500gc thief costs.