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Thread: Towards an understanding of player fail

  1. #76
    Sir Postalot Pillz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    While I generally agree with you, there's a few things that make this just generally tough to refute, but not necessarily true
    1. You haven't really given a definition of what "most formidable land army" actually entitles or how to measure a land army's greatness. Battles won? Size of the empire? Longevity?
    2. Sparta's most direct competition (Athens) had a completely different type of army, so any victories over them or defeats suffered doesn't equate to having a more formidable land army.
    3. Victories/defeats themselves aren't necessarily a display of who has a more formidable army. The United States most had a less formidable army than Great Britain, but we still won. There are tons of historical examples of the "underdogs" beating the mighty empires. The issues are usually outside stuff like economies, terrain knowledge, ect, which even further mucks up any "Who has the baddest army in the world" talks
    4. Could the Spartans have beaten the Chinese? Or the Gaul? Or Egypt? Any argument for or against is pure conjecture so nothing is really "proof"
    The context is 650 BC to 371 BC.

    Sparta was the most feared city in Greece, nobody wanted to fight them. Athens wasn't a competitor until their balls dropped at Marathon, and they were still second fiddle to Sparta until Pausanias' betrayal and the pan-hellenic rejection of Sparta. That gave way to the Delian League aka the Athenian Maritime Empire, which Sparta defeated.

    I've covered the Greco-Persian history. Most victories were not Spartan, but given that Sparta was still considered the preeminent land power in Greece until 371 BC, and did participate in several successful campaigns against Persia, they win there. We're not discussing the greatest Empires or the longest running, just military might.

    Egypt used light infantry similar to Persia's, so yes, a Spartan army would have likely defeated an Egyptian army.
    If the Romans could defeat the Gauls it's likely that any Greek force would have as well in a pitched battle. This is speculative, yes, I'm not even sure the Greek colonies in Iberia and France had to contend with Gauls or if they fought other barbarians.
    Bart is our China expert I guess. I know nothing of Chinese history outside of the history of the development of their script and how contentious that is for the chinks.

    2. Sparta's most direct competition (Athens) had a completely different type of army, so any victories over them or defeats suffered doesn't equate to having a more formidable land army.
    u wut m8
    Why does it matter? If they fought on land and won, that is proof of a more formidable land army. Keep in mind that easily half of all Greek citiesin Greece proper, most of the Aegean, and pretty much all of the Black Sea/Thracian/Macedonian colonies were under Athenian control. So Spartans engagements would have not only been against Athenian hoplites, depending on who was revolting against Athens at the time and where the fighting occurred.
    Last edited by Pillz; 22-04-2016 at 00:52.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pillz View Post
    u wut m8
    Why does it matter? If they fought on land and won, that is proof of a more formidable land army. Keep in mind that easily half of all Greek citiesin Greece proper, most of the Aegean, and pretty much all of the Black Sea/Thracian/Macedonian colonies were under Athenian control. So Spartans engagements would have not only been against Athenian hoplites, depending on who was revolting against Athens at the time and where the fighting occurred.
    My point was that if I cite a conflict where Athens beats Sparta, you need only say "Yea, but their navy won that for them" because that was usually the case. Their navy did a lot of work for their ground forces. It matters because it really takes the wind of any arguments sails. The way you're phrasing it just sort of auto-wins for you without you necessarily having the right idea. You might as well word it as "Sparta had the best collection of Spartans"...well yea lol. Warfare isn't just land armies so your argument really isn't encompassing of what I think you're trying to argue.

  3. #78
    Sir Postalot Pillz's Avatar
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    Only thing the Athenian Navy won them was the ability to spread the plague to more of their strong holds tho, in all honestly.

  4. #79
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    I disagree on Spartans being the most formidable in history, but during their time...sure.

  5. #80
    Regular SwappY's Avatar
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    Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one

  6. #81
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    Not going to respond in-depth anymore, we've kind of exhausted our argument. However, to Pillz I'd like to say that it would be wise to first learn about the history of other people rather than follow a eurocentic narrative that the historical profession grew out of 30-40 years ago. You can see the extent of bias by the fact that most "histories of the world" back then were basically histories of the West, whereby somehow a link was made between Greece --> Rome --> Europe --> US with the rest of the world patiently awaiting the impact of colonialism to escape their pre-modern period of agricultural stasis. Your comment on the "real" barbarians simply show that your knowledge is outdated. The word barbarian stems from Greek and simply referred to "people who spoke barbar(blabla)" in other words --> those whose language we don't understand.

    Just because the "Greeks" settled as colonists in many parts of the Mediterranean coastline doesn't mean they weren't fringe people from the perspective of the then-largest empire in the world. There is a huge difference between defending your homeground and sending the occasional expedition into enemy territory and effectively subduing and conquering territory. The Japanese defeated two Mongol expeditions to subdue their island, does that make Japan the foremost military power of the 13th-14th centuries (since the Mongolians pretty much defeated everyone else). Does Tang dominance of East and Central Asia and their subsequent defeat by the Tibetans (who sacked their capital) make Tibet the foremost power in the 7th-8th century?

  7. #82
    Game Support Bishop's Avatar
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    What the hell are you guys up to. Get on topic :/
    Support email: utopiasupport@utopia-game.com <- please use this and don't just PM me| Account Deleted/Inactive | Utopia Facebook Page | #tactics <-- click to join IRC|
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  8. #83
    Regular SwappY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    What the hell are you guys up to. Get on topic :/
    Schh, fix the lag and forum is gonna get quiet again!

  9. #84
    Post Fiend Skank's Avatar
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    I started 2 days late and my ghetto KD made me king. about 1/2 are explorers, 1/4 good attackers, 1/4 idk cause they have posted nothing
    I await the wrath of doG as I come oop

    [from Strat]: so don't turn into Iron Boots and ruin some good times.

    No way sir. Genesis KD how true... I have been very nice to my mates. I was #3 in Honor for my island my last age of Genesis with only 1/2 our KD playing. Now, We have a big halfer who is iron boots, I hope he tunes it down.
    Last edited by Skank; 23-04-2016 at 04:24.

  10. #85
    Needs to get out more
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    I know this guy; knakS is his real name.* - you're probably in a genesis kingdom. I started in one last age. It's cool to see all the fresh faces, so don't turn into Iron Boots and ruin some good times.

    *
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  11. #86
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    stoffi STILL HASN'T BEEN BACK since his comment!


    The Jerks.

  12. #87
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    The Germans probably had the most formidable land army man-for-man in history, and they got beat. Bad.

    Did I just Godwin this thread?

  13. #88
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    These charts could be useful in getting like players together or matching complimentary styles.

    For instance, my rare circumstances and favored playing style are incongruent with what appears to be the entire server.

    Serious with just Pimp and kingdom chat

    High activity with organized council and strategies

    Player persona/racial choices within broad limits

    Not warring but happy to war anyone anytime

    Exploring cows but not with vicious intent

    Generally, if you have choice the kingdom fears bottom feeders. If you have organization you don't have choice but you do have bots and external chat. Kingdoms feel the need to categorize themselves which I find irrelevant. Putting on size is always a good way to find war and a great learning tool to evolve from farm out to contender.

    But for most players/monarchs i think these charts could be useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  14. #89
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    Serious with just Pimp and kingdom chat
    I recommend using LINE. The stickers increase the emotional bonding with your theme and allows you to give negative feedback in a positive way :)

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta View Post
    I recommend using LINE. The stickers increase the emotional bonding with your theme and allows you to give negative feedback in a positive way :)
    Intuitively you've made Sparta a destination kingdom. I said that before, but I think I've seen it proven in war and the overall chart is another indicator. Not all intangibles shine through the math, but you're resetting provinces after 2 wars was admirable. It showed a level of fortitude and open thinking. That you excelled after the switch proved excellent judgment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

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