To many teams or to few competitors

[Madchess]

I'm concerned over the numbers of kingdoms arround this age, currently the count is 193 and that could go up with the new changes while the number of players have a tendency to drop slightly as the age progresses and is just below 4k.

This means we are close to see an average of below 20 provinces a kingdom, and while some can still count 25 members that leaves even fewer for the rest of the kingdoms out there and surely more teams will have a hard time geting filled to 22 provinces on a permanent basis.

While I cherish the fact that people now got the freedom to create their own kingdoms and decide to keep that last spot from being filled constantly with an inactive player, and genneraly think it is one of the main reasons for more players returning than leaving this age, I can not help but think this will make it hard for some kingdoms to play and compete this age because they need 22 players to be even with another 22 player kingdom, and gooing with less will make it hard to find kingdoms that are both the same size and with the same numbers of players to compete against.

I believe that if the trend continues we could see a lot of established kingdoms struggle later in the age and maybe give up altogether, some kingdoms that may have been arround for ages and which many of us outside the top have encountered one way or the other.

[Palem]

Here's my problem with feeling sympathy for 22 province kingdoms that are struggling to keep up with recruiting:

Kingdom: Oh my god! Game is so barren! I can't find anyone to play with us!
Random: Hi, can I play? I won't be using your chat program, but I'm really active :)
Kingdom: No you may not. Either leave or we'll kill you.
*1 week later*
Kingdom: Seriously, this game is dead. There's no one to recruit!


Kingdoms have absolutely failed in the concept of "adapt or die". If you're having trouble recruiting, here's some of the problems you may be facing:
1. You're too picky. Beggars can't be choosers. If you've got 12 requirements to play in your kingdom and you can't find anyone, then you need to lower your standards.
2. You're spending all your time killing inactives. Just stop. It's a race you're never going to win and you're just scaring off even more people that would have been happy to play for you if their future didn't consist of spending their age razing off people and having no fun. Monarch's can remove inactives with 1 push of a button, so let them while everyone else does something productive and fun.
3. You're not recruiting. Every now and then you'll land a good random, but if you want to really build a kingdom, you should be recruiting. Going after players that actively express an interest in playing with you is obviously a much more reliable route for finding and keeping players. You don't even need to shell out money for invites if you're willing to be patient
4. You're just not successful enough to keep players. There's two main reasons people play Utopia. The social interactions and to succeed. That doesn't mean you need whore or try to get 50 war wins an age or something, but you need to be able to set goals and achieve them. If you're going to war, you need to win wars, or people aren't going to bother.
5. You've failed to understand that player shortage effects pretty much everyone. It's not like there's 1 kingdom that's having problems recruiting. If you're experiencing something, there's a pretty good chance other kingdoms are experiencing it too. Find those kingdoms that only really have 20 active provinces too and war them. They exist.

[FATstrat]

As previous ghetto monarch i have to disagree with all 5 of palems incredibly gay bullet points.

Ghetto monarch is one of the most unrewarding and ultimately hopeless things I ever tried. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

[StratOcastle]

My first advice is to do holistic merges based in activity and projected synergy. By holistic I mean you're not kicking the casual leftovers to the curb. While you build your active kingdom you can help guide the rest in organizing a casual kingdom that can become an instant ally. It's a little too late now since we're into the age, but this option is available pre-age every age. Forethought is good.

My second piece of advice is to use irc. The beauty of irc is to meet players around the game. If it seems dead, kick up a conversation. It's a resource that goes untapped. In my mind the irc should be wrought with social interaction and kingdom to kingdom commerce "above the game". If we had a truly global approach to Utopia we could seek recruitment appropriate players for kingdoms we don't even play in. With everybody stuck in their own little chat world it's no wonder the social aspect of the game falters. Technology is only a good servant and a terrible master. Many players haven't learned this lesson right up to the most successful kingdoms in the game. Counterintuitive? No. They are struggling to, they just know the meta. But they are tired and unenthusiastic if something goes sideways.

More players should read the forums and get their anti-troll armor on. The nice people will prevail if you give them time to address you. It isn't just to learn strategy but to meet players from every tier of the game. You learn why certain kingdoms react the way they do and how to deal with them. Mob rules seem to apply everywhere, but I can say that I don't follow mob rule and I do just fine. You can be an individual and serve a kingdom in ways they can't imagine. That's called teamwork....

Teamwork is a rare bird in Utopia. I come from RPGs where team interaction is paramount. What we have in Utopia is a lot of cultural misunderstanding. First we think we need to define a kingdom as growth/top or war/honor. Yes you can, but you can be anything you want. Following some meta, that's been misinterpreted by the majority, we have a war culture that plays out like some scenario of panic and inactivity. This is also why we devolve into totalitarianism. Leaders seem to require monoracism in their builds and then want control measures that turn core players into virtual drones. The secret to kicking ass is teamwork. I could've given so much more last age if I was given the choice of race and personality. I'm not alone in this, just so many players have given their free will in the interest of kingdom. That's an incorrect assumption. In my RPG games we were each special and gave of our particular set of skills to defeat dragons, demons and sometimes gods. It feels better to.

That said, you've taken the first step in selflessly posting here. That is noble. You display a concern for the game and where it's headed. I think we can all agree that it could be better. Don't let anyone get you down about your approach. Simply read through the tough parts and yield the deeper concern they also have. In critisism you can pull constructive epiphany, just don't let the bastards know it ;-)

Stick around.

[Madchess]

It sure is, I gave up on that before the start of last age, our last war was so phatetic I alone did half the attacks, and I never wanted the M in the first place. Now I'm in a more solid kingdom and hopefully staying away from the M for good, we win some and lose some, but rarely have people gooing inactive and I never saw someone ragequit or defect in war, that happened all the time when in the ghetto kingdom and the more valurable core players either left at eoa because of lack of actions, or got recruited as they could see we had to many not really dooing their share of things.

Sure smaller kingdoms can be the way to go if you just feel like playing with your buddy or don't give a damn about teamplay or like to be dwarf (that race only have a handful of serious players this age, the rest seams to be filler material in ghettos).

I don't really think Palems example apply to anyone outside the top 10 or 20, and in any case I'm not here whining about the hardship of my kingdom and I do not at any point ask for sympathy in my original post, I'm raising a concern that many of the mid tier kingdoms this age will risk ending up like ghettos because there is way to many kingdoms compared to the number of players this age, and in fact I already see quite a few kingdoms I've warred with in the past, who seams to struggle getting 22 players. I'm concerned that we may see as many as 30 kingdoms getting below 22 players at EoA and another 50 struggeling to replace their lost core players, I'm also concerned that the diffrence between top and bottom will grow even bigger as a result.

[Thunder TA]

Actually Palems advise is well given.If more understood what was holding them back as far as how to recruit and what good players see when they do random thru it would speed up the process.
As for the numbers, Thats been said every age for years now.They wont lower kd numbers as i kinda think thats where this thread is going to head.

[Rizen]

Ghettos gonna ghetto

[DM_Benjamin]

Ghettos gonna ghetto

I'd just like to point out that I have been following the evolution of your signature and its heading in the right direction

[Palem]

As previous ghetto monarch i have to disagree with all 5 of palems incredibly gay bullet points.

Ghetto monarch is one of the most unrewarding and ultimately hopeless things I ever tried. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

The fact that you disagree with my points and then complain about what an insufferable wreck your kingdom was just further confirms my point.

I don't really think Palems example apply to anyone outside the top 10 or 20, and in any case I'm not here whining about the hardship of my kingdom and I do not at any point ask for sympathy in my original post, I'm raising a concern that many of the mid tier kingdoms this age will risk ending up like ghettos because there is way to many kingdoms compared to the number of players this age, and in fact I already see quite a few kingdoms I've warred with in the past, who seams to struggle getting

You can check the recruiting forum if you most aren't top 20 kingdoms and almost all of them have requirements that are above what most people are willing to do (at least initially).

Also, if player base shrinks and recruiting gets harder then the same rules apply. Adapt or die.

[Rizen]

I'd just like to point out that I have been following the evolution of your signature and its heading in the right direction

I was wondering if anyone was paying attention that I keep changing it lol

[RollinHammer]

Ghetto monarch is one of the most unrewarding and ultimately hopeless things I ever tried. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this guy. A kingdom is only as good as its leader and being monarch Sucks huge whang. 21-24 people relying on one guy to do their day to day politics While having to deal with ghetto trash... you have a better chance of walking into baltimore and finding all the poor inner city youths jobs and happy homes. Its hopeless. Ghetto trash players are hopeless but its the design of the system. They only see and know ghetto trash. Every so often one climbs out of the trash heap but more times than not they just ghetto garbage

[Madchess]

[Palem ]You can check the recruiting forum if you most aren't top 20 kingdoms and almost all of them have requirements that are above what most people are willing to do (at least initially).[/QUOTE]

While that may be true my experience from randomming into kingdoms rather than getting recruited means you can decide on your own pace what to implement and go more with what you desire than what they desire you to do. My experience is that most mid tier kingdoms can be asking you to do things, but rarely they would go as far as to pk someone. Also why should they not ask you to be willing to do some things if you are interested in getting recruited, as far as recruitment go it is trying to match kingdoms and players, so the players should be a little open to what the kingdom wants just as the kingdom should be open to the player.

True to much zeal can keep people away, but to little organisation means your better players will leave for a more organised kingdom and you end up in the ghetto tier sooner or later with people constantly gooing on to make bad decissions that will affect the whole team, or people logging in 3-5 times a week.

It is a ballance, and I think the ballance is getting harder to keep the fewer people on avage for each team that is arround, I don't think you can just blame each and every team that fails, many has been dooing well for ages and only gradually loses their core of decent players.

[FATstrat]

The fact that you disagree with my points and then complain about what an insufferable wreck your kingdom was just further confirms my point.

That's a large leap in logic there palem. I did everything you said on your list but it still was pointless. Unless you have tried to form a kingdom from scratch yourself you do not know what it is like. And I don't mean the top players that come in and say 'I formed a successful KD in one age', because honestly, these people have contacts and friends in utopia who they bring in to form an active core. Take Shirish for example, we have some high profile players who people trust and people were lining up to join. But then they know the KD is going to be successful and barriers to entry don't bother them.

It's a catch 22.

When you reduce the barriers to entry you get more people but they are inevitably less committed and it is rare they will stay in the KD till EOA. I won my first 2 wars in the ghetto KD, against other KDs with poor activity and inactives, like you advised on your list. We then warred again and lost, resulting in some of our players leaving. You may say I don't want flakey players anyway, but there are a limited number of players so its not like I can just bring in someone new and more committed with ease. Most good and reliable players looking for a KD aren't looking for a struggling ghetto to try and help, they are looking for something established or easy.

You can keep pretending it's not a problem, but unless new/returning players join an already established KD I can't see them staying in the ghetto for too long before becoming tired of trying so hard with little results.

[Aranfein]

Having made a number of kingdoms from scratch myself from ghetto players, i would like to say its a hugely demanding job that requires a lot of dedication for your part as a monarch..

1). Its very hard to recruit loyal players in a ghetto, as someone pointed out.. However there are ways, though time consuming (most dont have that kind of time)
2). Its an extremely ungreatful job, as even if you succeed to bring players together from ghettos, the active ones will jump into top KDs rather then wait for you to "team" the KD up.
3). Stamina, success and failures, in ghettos when you manage to fill your KD they will expect instant success, if you lose they jump ship.
4). Palem adapting to the game and lowering standards is an okay idea on paper, in reality though you can not compromise the activity or commitment, otherwise players leave.
5). You get the top head hunting your more active players, likely using munk to check activity level, Ive had offers from pretty much all the KDs hating me at the top, without them knowing its me, from ingame messages asking if i fancy taking over an account etc. It will be the same for other active players in mid tier war KDs, and many will jump on the offer simply because it removes a lot of frustration of those making mistakes over and over again.
6). A monarch leading a ghetto will if he wants to create a KD from scratch that can compete in the higher/top war tier, take roughly 4/5 ages just to gather a team that can be active enough, then comes to time spend ironing out errors etc. before you start getting the experienced/top players offering to play and help just so they got another KD as allies that can block etc. vs the other growth KDs.

Its not as easy as you make it sound to lead a ghetto and keep a ghetto strong long enough to become proper established... You got people that have a lot of contacts as someone mentioned and these can create a KD within an age that has decent success but rarely last more then 2/3 ages, before splitting into the already established like Pyro, BB, CR, Divinity, Emeriti etc.

[JusticeLeague]

U forgot about Spartans... Weren't they once ghetto and now doing extremely well ? And leave no evidence behind