take war land bonus away

[khronosschoty]

So that people are tempted to WD so they do not loose acres, right now loosing acres is not so bad because its mitigated by land bonus.

[Persain]

eeh....losing acres is never bad unless your a whore kd. And then the ww bonus is only there to remove the stupid idea that u can lose a war and profit. If i lose a war/withdraw i should be weaker than the guy that beat me not benefit.

Like why do i care if im small. Your suggestion is basically the game should value land. The only way to enforce almost always makes the kd who whore so ungodly strong that the game is unbalanced since bigger kd has more land. Honestly though theres been issues with land/ww/gains for a while. It mostly started back in age 55 when they removed gains taken from pool. IN the 5-10 ages prior to that one could simply gain acres and your attackers would pull away in land, building nw and making oor chaining hard. You could win wars by gaining land unless their t/m's were pretty good.

After that age it was impossible to really win simply gaining land unless you could massively out econ the enemy because pumped orcs would ALWAYs hit for 20% max gains. There was simply no reason not to pump gains science and 1-2 topfeed for 20% of your land while using spare off to massacre the attackers around you/supplement gains. Wars no longer generated land, and large attackers simply got shelled by good t/ms. There has sense been changes such as the ww bonus, intra costing honor, annons costing honor.....to force war kds to grow in their entirety. Similarly they changed gains science to ME to make oor chaining harder which was a step in the right direction, but but they horribly buffed topfeed raze+ in war massacres which means attackers cant get oor. You'll simply never pull away if you lose 20% of your built land or 1/3 your peasants 1/4 your tpa 1/6 your wpa via a SINGLE random oor hits. This age things only got worse as the relative value of land got horribly nerfed when military values and thus total nw/acre shot up.

Theres multiple ways to handle things in general but none really that address the "tempted to WD so they do not loose acres" as there is ZERO ways to quickly implement that concept as your suggestion doesnt balance both war and whore kds.

My "suggestions" would be a significant rework and look something like

1. WW land bonus, applied proportionally to the smallest people in your kd to help them recover..."big" people gain nothing
2. 1/4-1/2 of all ww bonus on war loss... including building credits/science/specs,land,honor.....(again smaller people get free land to help recovery)
3. War bonus is based on relative starting/ending LAND of enemy kd, war length.
- Win is based solely on war length, longer=harder=more (like 200 bpa is fine min time but a 2 week war u should get more than 200 bpa).
- War loss the more land you take the more bonus you get..... (up to say half what the winner gets if u say almost double their land but still cant win?)
4. On war loss you get option to re-declare on someone up to 6 hours after EOWCF ends, nw/land restrictions removed from this, ww bonus negated if WW bonus removed if out of normal declare range.
5. Wars generate land again. DURING war...not just wW
6. Science is fixed to bpa, not land. This solves "growing" issues and means big/small no benefit to it either side
7. To counter with chaining buff to science, have overpop include "incoming acres" when being calculated at "all" times.
8. Flat land gains of 12% of targets land, not min your own/target IN WAR (top feeding raze/mass not as important)
9. Magic/theif changes via nerf peasant damage via FB/MS/kindap, increase damage to military via ns/prop/MS, lower NM difficultly.


Notes
#1 The WW bonus for land would be more about recover than reward for "Winning", but should still be enough that it discourages constant b2b since the winning kd will have a significantly stronger core in round 2.

#4 allows b2b...while its against the concept of i win im better, equally skilled kds should rearly have this issue, while if u take so much land that you can beat them with <1/2 the ww bonus i think its reasonable to say be ready to fight again. Again we value land a bit more if u really want lots of war wins. more war wins=bigger kds

#5 May need lower WW land gain? Land generation could come from pool? If not from pool maybe no pool growth in war generate but generate 5% land per hit? Maybe generate 5% land per hit till 5% of kd starting land is generated then ww bonus is 2%? This is hard to balance, but theres nothing wrong with Waring>whoring to grow, other than burnout. Thing is top kd leaders almost never leave long term due to burnout, its always diplomacy issues....see elit.

#8 this is probubly needed not only for topfeed issues, but to balance chaining science/overpop this should ~keep current chaining on par.


If ALL these changes were made we'd probubly have a better balance of valuing land in utopia, and kds that war would naturally trend upwards, without making land simply the u have more you win, u have more u can bully anyone.

[khronosschoty]

eeh....losing acres is never bad unless your a whore kd. And then the ww bonus is only there to remove the stupid idea that u can lose a war and profit. If i lose a war/withdraw i should be weaker than the guy that beat me not benefit.

Like why do i care if im small. Your suggestion is basically the game should value land. The only way to enforce almost always makes the kd who whore so ungodly strong that the game is unbalanced since bigger kd has more land. Honestly though theres been issues with land/ww/gains for a while. It mostly started back in age 55 when they removed gains taken from pool. IN the 5-10 ages prior to that one could simply gain acres and your attackers would pull away in land, building nw and making oor chaining hard. You could win wars by gaining land unless their t/m's were pretty good.

After that age it was impossible to really win simply gaining land unless you could massively out econ the enemy because pumped orcs would ALWAYs hit for 20% max gains. There was simply no reason not to pump gains science and 1-2 topfeed for 20% of your land while using spare off to massacre the attackers around you/supplement gains. Wars no longer generated land, and large attackers simply got shelled by good t/ms. There has sense been changes such as the ww bonus, intra costing honor, annons costing honor.....to force war kds to grow in their entirety. Similarly they changed gains science to ME to make oor chaining harder which was a step in the right direction, but but they horribly buffed topfeed raze+ in war massacres which means attackers cant get oor. You'll simply never pull away if you lose 20% of your built land or 1/3 your peasants 1/4 your tpa 1/6 your wpa via a SINGLE random oor hits. This age things only got worse as the relative value of land got horribly nerfed when military values and thus total nw/acre shot up.

Theres multiple ways to handle things in general but none really that address the "tempted to WD so they do not loose acres" as there is ZERO ways to quickly implement that concept as your suggestion doesnt balance both war and whore kds.

My "suggestions" would be a significant rework and look something like

1. WW land bonus, applied proportionally to the smallest people in your kd to help them recover..."big" people gain nothing
2. 1/4-1/2 of all ww bonus on war loss... including building credits/science/specs,land,honor.....(again smaller people get free land to help recovery)
3. War bonus is based on relative starting/ending LAND of enemy kd, war length.
- Win is based solely on war length, longer=harder=more (like 200 bpa is fine min time but a 2 week war u should get more than 200 bpa).
- War loss the more land you take the more bonus you get..... (up to say half what the winner gets if u say almost double their land but still cant win?)
4. On war loss you get option to re-declare on someone up to 6 hours after EOWCF ends, nw/land restrictions removed from this, ww bonus negated if WW bonus removed if out of normal declare range.
5. Wars generate land again. DURING war...not just wW
6. Science is fixed to bpa, not land. This solves "growing" issues and means big/small no benefit to it either side
7. To counter with chaining buff to science, have overpop include "incoming acres" when being calculated at "all" times.
8. Flat land gains of 12% of targets land, not min your own/target IN WAR (top feeding raze/mass not as important)
9. Magic/theif changes via nerf peasant damage via FB/MS/kindap, increase damage to military via ns/prop/MS, lower NM difficultly.


Notes
#1 The WW bonus for land would be more about recover than reward for "Winning", but should still be enough that it discourages constant b2b since the winning kd will have a significantly stronger core in round 2.

#4 allows b2b...while its against the concept of i win im better, equally skilled kds should rearly have this issue, while if u take so much land that you can beat them with <1/2 the ww bonus i think its reasonable to say be ready to fight again. Again we value land a bit more if u really want lots of war wins. more war wins=bigger kds

#5 May need lower WW land gain? Land generation could come from pool? If not from pool maybe no pool growth in war generate but generate 5% land per hit? Maybe generate 5% land per hit till 5% of kd starting land is generated then ww bonus is 2%? This is hard to balance, but theres nothing wrong with Waring>whoring to grow, other than burnout. Thing is top kd leaders almost never leave long term due to burnout, its always diplomacy issues....see elit.

#8 this is probubly needed not only for topfeed issues, but to balance chaining science/overpop this should ~keep current chaining on par.


If ALL these changes were made we'd probubly have a better balance of valuing land in utopia, and kds that war would naturally trend upwards, without making land simply the u have more you win, u have more u can bully anyone.

Hey thanks for the input you did provide good quality opinions and valid insight. I'll review it a bit more and see if there is anything more I can comment on and if it really changes my mind.

[Persain]

Hey thanks for the input you did provide good quality opinions and valid insight. I'll review it a bit more and see if there is anything more I can comment on and if it really changes my mind.

<3 and for the TL;DR crowd....land is meaningless to most people so the OP doesn't work. I have a long list of ideas that need to ALL be included at once to do what he wants