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Thread: Goodbye EU... Hello solo

  1. #46
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    A representative democracy is and always has been about upholding oligarchy first. Any notions of superior merit are just justifications made after-the-fact; the vote itself is just a public debasement to acknowledge the rightful oligarchs, with a few bones thrown occasionally to people who matter to the oligarchy - people with money and power. The whole point is to convince enough of the lower classes that they're not really so bad off, while beating them if they ever get too uppity.

    My bet is that for all this talk, nothing will happen. Too big to fail. Everything is so confusing.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    A representative democracy is and always has been about upholding oligarchy first. Any notions of superior merit are just justifications made after-the-fact; the vote itself is just a public debasement to acknowledge the rightful oligarchs, with a few bones thrown occasionally to people who matter to the oligarchy - people with money and power. The whole point is to convince enough of the lower classes that they're not really so bad off, while beating them if they ever get too uppity.

    My bet is that for all this talk, nothing will happen. Too big to fail. Everything is so confusing.
    Perhaps, but it's the best rule of government that we have atm, direct democracy is just the tyranny of the majority and everything else is just various forms autocracy.

    In nations with a percentage based allocation for parliament doesn't lean for a 2 party system where it's truly just replacing one side of the coin with the other, it is possible to effect some change. A first across the line system ala UK or US is terrible and in the end essentially a just a Plutocracy/Kleptocracy.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 06-07-2016 at 16:57.
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  3. #48
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    I agree with you to a large extent, majoritarianism is no way to run a country and having a referendum every 2 weeks is also not. However can you name me the last time the UK had a referendum? Probably before you were born. And this is where I completely disagree with you. A constitutional question of such great magnitude on the direction of a country should be put to the people. Do the people went ever close integration into an EU superstate or do they want to govern themselves. This is not a question of should we run a 40% or 50% top rate of tax. I think this is also why you found many strongly pro EU people (including people from different parties) calling for a referendum.

    "There are too many lies, shams and general shady stuff going on(primarily from but not limited to the brexit camp to my knowledge) that aims to lead the public behind the light. When every living prime minister has spoken out for remain, and virtually all the experts recommend remain this should tell the public something. But the brexit camp responds with propaganda, lies and fake statistics(like that 350M/week claim that has been debunked time and time again but they kept swinging it) and make statements like "the public is tired of experts" which is a bloody moronic statement, and if true it spells doom on that society."

    I think like you said, many in the establishment were pro EU including many in the media. The government had the whole machine behind it and still lost. One could argue that the fear campaign was on the side of the remainers. Just google 'George Osbourne punishment budget' where he said a leave vote would mean an immediate rise in taxes and reduction in government spending. Just a few days ago he announced tax cuts. How about world war 3? How about we wont get trade deals with other countries? How about we'll lose millions of jobs?

    The 350M is not as blatant a lie as you claim. But I'm happy to settle at 250M a week if you want to go with that figure. The doom that did not happen to us was the what would have happened had we joined the Euro which even the people who promoted it agree they were wrong. I dont think we are doomed, on the contrary I hear countries such as India, China, Austrailia and New Zealand are knocking on our door for new trade deals.

    The real neglect is going in in Greece, and the refusal of politicians to follow the will of the people. And we all know that there are more bailouts coming.

    "The vote is not only about freedom of movement. The areas outside of the cities are also the areas who generally gets a lot of EU grants and support, those won't be replaced by the UK government when they leave EU. The goods & products of the areas outside of the cities are also to a greater extent primarily exported to the EU, therefore it is those wares and produce that would suffer from tariffs and other penalties from loosing access to the single market. Therefore it should be in their interest to vote remain rather than exit. So the primary areas that voted out are those that benefit the most from the membership. That is in no way rooted to travelling abroad but rather job security, living standards and wages."

    Firstly, you're making baseless assumptions. Secondly, I think you are missing the fact that there should be a sovereign government that should decide on where funding should go. Not some centralized European bureaucrat in Brussels. Other countries are queuing up for trade deals and as everybody knows we have a trade DEFICIT with the EU. Its in there interest to make a trade deal as soon as possible. Even more so now that the pound is now so weak. Its freedom of movement that actually drives down wages for the working class, which is why they are voting out in droves. In this way its the big corporations that benefit mostly from freedom of movement.

    "No I don't think exactly those thought crossed anybody's mind, if it did that'd indicate some sort of mental disorder. We're hardcoded to choose familial connections over strangers, so sacrificing your friends and family for strangers generally means something is wrong with you.]
    "But in terms of the big reasons people voted out(Xenophobia, they took our jerbs!), who was the major group voting out(the old), and who gets to pay for the longterm ramifications of the out vote(the young), in that context it rings true, but I seriously doubt anybody reasoned that way. Generally I think people were duped into voting out by lies, chicanery, propaganda and scaremongering. The vote is over and what's done is done, personally I hope that the new prime minister can find some way to either hold a second vote or override the will of the people(52-48 is hardly a strong message, it'd have been different if it was 60-40, even Farange said during the campaign that it was 52-48 for remain he wouldn't rule out a 2nd vote). Because out of necessity the EU will have to make sure that leaving will be moderately catastrophic or worse for the UK in order to discourage other votes that would tear the union to pieces. So the UK needs to be made an example of and that won't be pretty for the UK, if they get to keep what they have now it will only be if they accept all of the 4 freedoms, which the brexit camp promised not to, and even then they'll loose all say on the makings of those regulations and policies, they'll be told to take it or leave it."

    Some people like the idea of a dictatorship, as long as they are in charge because the population can not be trusted, and unfortunately you seem to be one of them. I'm so happy you posted this paragraph, we all knew the EU hates democracy! Democracy in Greece? rejected. Democracy in Ireland? rejected. Democracy in France? rejected. Are we going to be next? And who is after us?

    I'm inclined to suggest the opposite, namely that the margin would have been much larger had the government and establishment not been behind the remain camp. Think about it, most people were predicting remain on the eve of the polls because of the 'status quo' effect. Which basically means people would vote stay just because leaving would seemingly go into the unknown (half the remainers in the cabinet were strong eruosceptics.) Additionally if someones job was directly connected to the EU they would vote remain.

    "The whole "the elderly generation hates immigrants morethan they love their grandchildren hits pretty close."

    That statement of yours is the one I was referring to.

  4. #49
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    Also, just so you know, as soon as the polls closed everybody predicted a remain win. All the 'leave' leaders were saying that we should respect the result whatever it is. They said it throughout the campaign and even when it was thought they had lost. Democracy has to be a two way street.

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