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Thread: Goodbye EU... Hello solo

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    Obviously ye olde racism was a driver for Leave, but I've read from people on the far left who just want to see the world burn and FSU the financial sector.

    I think this is like Donald Trump wrecking the GOP primary. The far right has gone ape**** and burned conservatism. If only the left had any balls and could go in for the kill.
    Yeah absolutely, a fair chunk of people feel their government failed them and wanted to stick 2 fingers up to them by voting leave.

    Which is ****ing mental. Like the UK will suddenly go investing in ****holes like Cornwall and Sunderland. Lol. The EU gave like 4 billion back to ****ty areas in Wales and Scotland. The UK government however for years systematically let those areas sink into an absolute cesspit of unemployment and underfunding. But suddenly leaving the EU will allow the likes of Newcastle (a mining and steel works town) to grow thousands of jobs internally. It's just bat **** crazy.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meish View Post
    I keep hearing people say the EU forced people into taking in migrants...But do you all forget that one of the bigger political powers in the EU WAS Great Brittan itself? And that GB itselfs was no small party in the organisation and governing of the current EU? And that, from now on, the EU WILL take decisions which Great Brittan will have to follow WITHOUT theire own concent.

    I find it kind of ironic.

    Also, I am Dutch, living in smart folks bubble. Of which many of the smartest moved to London. And some of them already canceled theire jobs and are busy moving out. GB does not ONLY loose those dreaded poor refugees, but also loads of brain-power. Well done:P

    Also, welcome to stay, dear Scottish:D It would be strange if the English can leave the EU freely and you would not be able to leave the UK freely. Would it not?
    Free movement of people in the EU. This also means people can move out. Britain's youth voted massively to stay in EU. They are raging their opportunities have been curtailed so heavily.

    The leave campaign focused heavily on stopping those damn immigrants taking jobs from "hardworking" Brits. Jobs they can't and won't do.

    Easier to steer the car with one hand on the wheel, they overplayed their hand. Boris looks like he can't believe this happened. Bluff was called, panic stations now.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Free movement of people in the EU. This also means people can move out. Britain's youth voted massively to stay in EU. They are raging their opportunities have been curtailed so heavily.

    The leave campaign focused heavily on stopping those damn immigrants taking jobs from "hardworking" Brits. Jobs they can't and won't do.

    Easier to steer the car with one hand on the wheel, they overplayed their hand. Boris looks like he can't believe this happened. Bluff was called, panic stations now.
    Having said that, its the elderly who stopped the Brits from speaking German, and its the elderly that have paid so much into the system. Also not all 'working' class families have that luxury to move abroad and spend money in Spain or wherever. Furthermore, its the southern European countries some of whom are IN the EU who have 50% youth unemployment. They dont even govern themselves, the EU tells them what to do and where to spend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Having said that, its the elderly who stopped the Brits from speaking German, and its the elderly that have paid so much into the system. Also not all 'working' class families have that luxury to move abroad and spend money in Spain or wherever. Furthermore, its the southern European countries some of whom are IN the EU who have 50% youth unemployment. They dont even govern themselves, the EU tells them what to do and where to spend.
    So...does that mean, because "they stopped us from speaking German" they ve got a right to screw the next generation over now? What they did in WW2 has nothing, nada, zip to do with it. Fact remains, they are old and unable to evolve with the modern world. Sadly.

    Than, the remaine voters are more often high eductaed (what might that mean hmmmm--> advanced logics?;))...still in this case, the working classers who wan't out will suffer under the bad:/

    Furthermore, define "Youth unemployement". Yes some countries in the south aren't doing that well...true. But, so...your point being? What I can make from your last line is: If a country ****s up the United government formed by EU countries step in and "help" the country to get back on track. Sounds pretty decent to me;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meish View Post
    So...does that mean, because "they stopped us from speaking German" they ve got a right to screw the next generation over now? What they did in WW2 has nothing, nada, zip to do with it. Fact remains, they are old and unable to evolve with the modern world. Sadly.
    I agree its a side point but an important point to remember, and I was responding to Bishop. I mean, you are saying how they screwed the younger generation which is kind of disrespectful imho. I'm pointing out that they are the reason the younger generation exist as English speakers. They all have 1 vote surely that is something you would agree with? and that is the main point here.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Meish View Post
    Than, the remaine voters are more often high eductaed (what might that mean hmmmm--> advanced logics?;))...still in this case, the working classers who wan't out will suffer under the bad:/
    Hmmm, not sure exactly what you're point is here, could you elaborate and back up your claim with data?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meish View Post
    Furthermore, define "Youth unemployement". Yes some countries in the south aren't doing that well...true. But, so...your point being? What I can make from your last line is: If a country ****s up the United government formed by EU countries step in and "help" the country to get back on track. Sounds pretty decent to me;)
    My point is that the EU is not as good for the youth as was claimed. Greece would have recovered better if they were sovereign, had their own currency and done what any normal country would do which was to de-valuate currency and boost their economy. Instead they are stuck with a monetary policy decided by the EU which screws their chances of recover. I hear there is another bailout soon.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Having said that, its the elderly who stopped the Brits from speaking German, and its the elderly that have paid so much into the system.

    Not true, they are the children of the people that did that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Furthermore, its the southern European countries some of whom are IN the EU who have 50% youth unemployment. They dont even govern themselves, the EU tells them what to do and where to spend.
    Any evidence the EU has totalitarian control over governance in Southern European countries?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Araqiel View Post
    Not true, they are the children of the people that did that.
    Either way, its just a non factor point when it comes to the result of the referendum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Araqiel View Post
    Any evidence the EU has totalitarian control over governance in Southern European countries?
    Totalitarian? no. But take a look at what happened in Greece.

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    So...what was wrong with Greece...it was a corrupt country with a population with benefits payed for by loans they could not pay back. It was either bankrupt or reform under pressure. And not just pressure of the EU, also the IMF and other money lenders. The Greek people in the long run might well have an advantage thanks to this, because thanks to the EU structure there is someone checking theire picked corrupt government... And helping them to form a decent and working system.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meish View Post
    So...what was wrong with Greece...it was a corrupt country with a population with benefits payed for by loans they could not pay back. It was either bankrupt or reform under pressure. And not just pressure of the EU, also the IMF and other money lenders. The Greek people in the long run might well have an advantage thanks to this, because thanks to the EU structure there is someone checking theire picked corrupt government... And helping them to form a decent and working system.
    Look, I could not agree with you more regarding the corruptness of Greece and the unsuitability of its welfare program. However for me, I like what Churchill once said "democracy is the worst form of government that has been created, except for all the others." It cant be that the creators of democracy can have it swept away from them. I could not disagree more with your notion that foreign entities should be allowed to interfere with another countries democratic process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Look, I could not agree with you more regarding the corruptness of Greece and the unsuitability of its welfare program. However for me, I like what Churchill once said "democracy is the worst form of government that has been created, except for all the others." It cant be that the creators of democracy can have it swept away from them. I could not disagree more with your notion that foreign entities should be allowed to interfere with another countries democratic process.
    Well other countries normally should not. But, if you borrow borrow a foundation money and they did spend it all on booze instead of healthy food...would you not send in someone to get your money back? And would they not take custody over the foundation untill all is in order again?

    What would have done to make Greece repay its debt? Or would you just have said: "HUh? all my money gone to booze? Oh...ah wel.. ****...I don't like ehm anymore... ---> leading to the collapse of the foundation heavilly influencing all around it.// you giving even more money to prefend collapse

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    I mean, you are saying how they screwed the younger generation which is kind of disrespectful imho.
    Disrespectful yes, but that doesn't mean it's not true. The whole "the elderly generation hates immigrants morethan they love their grandchildren hits pretty close.
    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    I'm pointing out that they are the reason the younger generation exist as English speakers.
    First of all, it was a collective effort, none of the allies could have won without all the others, plus I'd bet money that 90% of those who fought didn't do it for the goodness of the people 3 generations later.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    They all have 1 vote surely that is something you would agree with? and that is the main point here.....
    They do but that doesn't entitle them to not be belittled, disrespected or ridiculed.



    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Hmmm, not sure exactly what you're point is here, could you elaborate and back up your claim with data?
    GRANTED!


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ucated-old-an/
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...u-referendum-0
    http://fortune.com/2016/06/22/brexit...-demographics/


    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    My point is that the EU is not as good for the youth as was claimed. Greece would have recovered better if they were sovereign, had their own currency and done what any normal country would do which was to de-valuate currency and boost their economy. Instead they are stuck with a monetary policy decided by the EU which screws their chances of recover. I hear there is another bailout soon.......
    The Euro was the sole reason Greece could get there in the first place because of shortsighted, populistic, irresponsible and incompetent politicians who loaned above Greece's ability to make payments. Leading politicians, are typically part of middle-age or above age segment. But you are correct, if Greece had had their own currency they could have devalued it, but you make it sound as if that would be all sunshine and rainbows... it wouldn't be, first of all most of their debt would be in non-drachma currencies, thus devaluating their currency would do little to solve their immediate problems. And that option is still open to them, if Greece seriously thought that dropping out of EU and the Euro would solve their problems then why would they stay?
    The truth is that it's their politicians, not the currency that's the problem, and fixing the currency won't fix the problem, or offer a solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Look, I could not agree with you more regarding the corruptness of Greece and the unsuitability of its welfare program. However for me, I like what Churchill once said "democracy is the worst form of government that has been created, except for all the others." It cant be that the creators of democracy can have it swept away from them. I could not disagree more with your notion that foreign entities should be allowed to interfere with another countries democratic process.
    Foreign entities didn't interefere with Greece's democratic process, they held their election for all the good it did them. And those foreign entities have no reason whatsoever to be bound by that election, or if they had then they should just hold elections of their own along the lines of "do you want to give greece more money which they throw away and then come asking for more, or is enough enough?" I'm pretty sure what the outcome in Germany would be for such an election.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 04-07-2016 at 20:49.
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  12. #42
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    If Canada was not part of America how would we survive?

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  13. #43
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    Elldallan,

    I guess we just completely disagree on who should be respected in society. You seem to want to respect the young more than the old. But again i feel this is so irrelevant, because democracy is a vote per person. I could tell you that outside London (and Scotland.) Young people also tended to vote out. I could tell you that we dont really know the views of young people as the turnout was much lower among them. (Just like people wanted to discredit the 2014 EU elections where ukip won.)

    I actually remember, during a pre referendum debate a real lefty taking on Ed Milliband who stated that the UK should stay in the EU because young people wanted to travel Europe! She responded how close-minded and London centric that statement was. The working class outside London cant afford to go to Europe. Its the last thing they think about.

    Some of the other things you said about are just appalling and sad to read in my opinion. For example, do you really think elderly people hate immigrants more than they like their children?

    As for the economic discussion. Without getting too deeply into it, one of the first things one learns in economics is the powerful effect monetary policy has in controlling and managing the economy. They had countless elections in which they voted for extreme left/right parties. Bailout 3 (or is it 4?) coming soon. Spain, Italy and others better watch out also.

    Finally, would you be kind enough to tell me what point you want to make from your pretty diagrams.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Having said that, its the elderly who stopped the Brits from speaking German, and its the elderly that have paid so much into the system. Also not all 'working' class families have that luxury to move abroad and spend money in Spain or wherever. Furthermore, its the southern European countries some of whom are IN the EU who have 50% youth unemployment. They dont even govern themselves, the EU tells them what to do and where to spend.
    1. Anyone who had a hand in that would have to be at least 15 at the start of WW2, which means they were born in 1925, and are now 90+ years of age. There aren't so many of those. And besides, during footy tournaments we still speak German, right?
    2. I'm glad Amsterdam will get less English scum to ruin our beautiful tow center ^^
    3. The "Young" only have themselves to blame because they did not show up at the ballots.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Elldallan,

    I guess we just completely disagree on who should be respected in society. You seem to want to respect the young more than the old. But again i feel this is so irrelevant, because democracy is a vote per person.
    I don't disagree with you, respect is earned, thus the older tend to be more respected than the young, but I don't believe that the old deserve respect merely for being old.
    And this is the reason virtually every democracy(barring Switzerland to my knowledge, there may be others though), the public as a collective has neither the knowledge, insight, or understanding required to make an informed choice on complicated matters such as brexit, and therefore should not be asked to make such choices. I think it's a sign gross incompetence and neglect for politicians to call such a vote.
    The idea with a representative democracy is that we elect officials who at least in theory have the time, resources, and hopefully competence to make themselves informed on a given subject. Enough so that they can make that informed choice.

    If they do it badly we periodically get to replace them should we the public choose to. But because we the public lack the capability to make an informed choice we shouldn't be asked to make an uninformed choice.
    There are too many lies, shams and general shady stuff going on(primarily from but not limited to the brexit camp to my knowledge) that aims to lead the public behind the light. When every living prime minister has spoken out for remain, and virtually all the experts recommend remain this should tell the public something. But the brexit camp responds with propaganda, lies and fake statistics(like that 350M/week claim that has been debunked time and time again but they kept swinging it) and make statements like "the public is tired of experts" which is a bloody moronic statement, and if true it spells doom on that society.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    I could tell you that outside London (and Scotland.) Young people also tended to vote out. I could tell you that we dont really know the views of young people as the turnout was much lower among them. (Just like people wanted to discredit the 2014 EU elections where ukip won.)
    Yes they did vote out to a greater extent, but there is a clear tendency for the younger as a group(sorted by each election circuit) to vote to remain to a higher percentage compared to the old(see image 2). Yes the voter turnout was lower amongst the young which is unfortunate or it might have prevented this disaster. But there where still enough of them to make statistically relevant estimates and assumptions on how the group as a whole votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    I actually remember, during a pre referendum debate a real lefty taking on Ed Milliband who stated that the UK should stay in the EU because young people wanted to travel Europe! She responded how close-minded and London centric that statement was. The working class outside London cant afford to go to Europe. Its the last thing they think about.
    The vote is not only about freedom of movement. The areas outside of the cities are also the areas who generally gets a lot of EU grants and support, those won't be replaced by the UK government when they leave EU. The goods & products of the areas outside of the cities are also to a greater extent primarily exported to the EU, therefore it is those wares and produce that would suffer from tariffs and other penalties from loosing access to the single market. Therefore it should be in their interest to vote remain rather than exit. So the primary areas that voted out are those that benefit the most from the membership. That is in no way rooted to travelling abroad but rather job security, living standards and wages.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Some of the other things you said about are just appalling and sad to read in my opinion. For example, do you really think elderly people hate immigrants more than they like their children?
    No I don't think exactly those thought crossed anybody's mind, if it did that'd indicate some sort of mental disorder. We're hardcoded to choose familial connections over strangers, so sacrificing your friends and family for strangers generally means something is wrong with you.
    But in terms of the big reasons people voted out(Xenophobia, they took our jerbs!), who was the major group voting out(the old), and who gets to pay for the longterm ramifications of the out vote(the young), in that context it rings true, but I seriously doubt anybody reasoned that way. Generally I think people were duped into voting out by lies, chicanery, propaganda and scaremongering. The vote is over and what's done is done, personally I hope that the new prime minister can find some way to either hold a second vote or override the will of the people(52-48 is hardly a strong message, it'd have been different if it was 60-40, even Farange said during the campaign that it was 52-48 for remain he wouldn't rule out a 2nd vote). Because out of necessity the EU will have to make sure that leaving will be moderately catastrophic or worse for the UK in order to discourage other votes that would tear the union to pieces. So the UK needs to be made an example of and that won't be pretty for the UK, if they get to keep what they have now it will only be if they accept all of the 4 freedoms, which the brexit camp promised not to, and even then they'll loose all say on the makings of those regulations and policies, they'll be told to take it or leave it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    As for the economic discussion. Without getting too deeply into it, one of the first things one learns in economics is the powerful effect monetary policy has in controlling and managing the economy. They had countless elections in which they voted for extreme left/right parties. Bailout 3 (or is it 4?) coming soon. Spain, Italy and others better watch out also.
    Indeed, monetary policy has a huge effect on the economy. Without an independent currency and by extension an independent central bank their ability to make policy is severely hampered. With an independent currency such as the Pound or the Krona it is unlikely that this could have happened. Because the market would have put limits on how deeply they could loan, if they loaned too much their credit rating would drop and further loans would become more expensive, thus naturally limiting the amounts they could loan. They got into this problem because the rates where a lot lower than they would have been for such a small, debt ridden and vulnerable country, because due to the Euro the rates were tied to the eurozone as a whole. They got there through incompetent and opportunistic politicians who sold out the country in order to get re-elected. But at this point dropping out of the Euro and floating their own currency only to devaluate it would not sort their problems, the debts would still be in euros so devaluing their currency would not decrease the debts. dropping out of the euro and probably the EU would loose them access to the single market and probably the Schengen union as well and thereby impacting the important tourism industry.
    If it really was better don't you think Tsipras would have chosen that option after the vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by lampost View Post
    Finally, would you be kind enough to tell me what point you want to make from your pretty diagrams.
    You asked Meish for data to back up the claim that there was a correlation between education level and voter affinity, 2 of the diagrams show that, the others just came with the picture and I was too lazy to crop them.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 06-07-2016 at 15:34.
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