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Thread: Science has become a joke

  1. #1
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    Science has become a joke

    Hello all,

    Would like to see an mature talk about why this change has become the worst change in utopia ever.
    Bishop qvote: "instead of being a dick about it, correct me instead you......"

    With that said, i think this science system is a huge flaw.
    It's because it's really hard to out grow in science due to skill or activity. This make the game less active since the first few years in the game depends on chance. A chance to get an scientist...

    Players in my own kd that i am teaching the game and always come behind me. (Well they have already but still)
    Can easy be the same level with a lot less activity.

    You dont get anything in the war win rewards, meaning less to war for. Less to lose if and most kds will surrender earlier.

    Scientist system is all about chance not skill or activity. Or building setup.

    The spell rev... gives from 3.0% chance to 3.9% chance. Nothing big really.
    And labratorys you need about 30% to even get some push in the numbers.

    Nah an less activity is what you need the first couple of years in this game. Until you start gaining some scientists with aductions.

    What do you all think of this system?

  2. #2
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
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    You talk like science is a major factor in everything you do, it isnt. You are too set in your old ways and refuse to adapt to the new situation. "Its not like it used to be hence its bad!" There is nothing that stops you from warring now, everyone else is in the same boat as you. Get rid of that mentality that you have to be pumped up with sci before you engage and you will just be fine.

  3. #3
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    I don't like it for a few reasons but I can live with it.

    Why do I have to get lucky scientists on a race with crap sci?

  4. #4
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    The practical appeal to this version of science might be that it's more attractive to players with RL time constraints. Myself, I'm a very active player but I've noticed I don't have to monitor science or save books. Obviously there are some strategic paradigms and we'll figure it out as we go.

    I'll admit these changes hardly effect me as it effects players use to age long accumulation. I switch provinces often and compete against players with far more science than I'm accustomed to having. That said, my point is that it's not as big an advantage as some believe. Or I should say, I'm adapted to competing against high science opponents.

    Practice playing against faster provinces with much higher offense and great science if you're an attacker. If you're a t/m apply the same logic and it will help you down the road when you face these formidable threats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
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  5. #5
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    I liked the idea at first, thinking it would help newer players to be able to keep up with numbers better hence attracting and retaining more players.
    Loved the cool named scientists and still do.
    But then with the way it is implemented now it actually might make the game more boring. Putting yourself into a new players shoes, after the initial excitement of having 18 scientists with cool names, you click on the page and see those same 18 scientists every tik without change for hours , possibly days.
    In the old science system you got to make a choice where to allocate science every tik and every tik you would see a change. It may not seem that big of a deal to someone who has been playing a while but when you are an enthusiastic new player it makes it more interesting to see a change in your province that you decided and caused.
    Assuming the goal is to have active players, that log in regularly, it would in my opinion be better to distribute scientists more often(even if their effect then might be smaller) and to have them not already allocated and instead, like with the old science, have them sit in a pool waiting to be sent to work by the players.

  6. #6
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    I agree, in the start it felt like oh cool new things. But then you read what Bishop say:

    MAX scientists are is about .... and the max science you can have is 10% pop ect.

    Well.. Then you start to see the spawn off the scientist + you start off with tons of science to be honest. You don't get anything in war.

    So with this said, if you want good science, explore be bigger then 90% of the server to be more safe. Do learns on smaller kingdoms as the age goes and just keep 30-40% Labratories to change the chance of getting 1 scientist with almost 0%....

    Im a player that can get 5-7 mil books an age due to experience and skill and it's nice when you destroy kingdoms with it due to active hitting for science OoW and in normal.
    + use university's to lower the cost and do science pumping.

    But now... I've stopped check 1 tabb and don't really care where they spawn, since the difference is so small. You just yeah i got a scientist, wonder how it will effect my province.
    No skill needed, just .... Mythia is an option for a game.

    If we wanted something "new" and getting people more accited or wanted more players to join the game. Maybe get:

    Halflings back from being a horrible race
    Gnomes back from the dead
    Dark Elves back from the dead

    Make the races more even meaning you see a lot more different races in the game.
    Not only "orc/ UD" kingdoms with 80% chance off being warriors.

    Elfs or maybe a FA as a TM.

    If your lucky you might find a 25 prov kd or a super active 22 man kd with Avians.

    Maybe you find 1 KD that has Dwarf or Human.
    But 90% is UD/ORC kds... fun right? sigh....

  7. #7
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    Well the scene right now is that the kingdoms that whore and grow have a science advantage after growing above the whore cap. But right now every kingdom has that advantage.

    So practically speaking, a good move by bishop to bring science and honor on closer levels but lets see as the age progresses.
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  8. #8
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    I'm not sure you can really draw that conclusion after only 68 hrs of actual game play. Maybe wait to see how mid-age and late-age play out with scientists and abduct attacks, then provide some feedback at the end of the age. There's a good chance that players will need to develop different strategies based on the science changes - for example, keeping extra scientists around to protect against abducts. Changing the tactics behind sciences (instead of endless pumping) might turn out to make the game more interesting in a few weeks. For instance, maybe your 5-7mil books per age will translate into "how well can you keep your sciences at the cap"?

  9. #9
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    I like the new sci system.

    Cons:
    Makes Sage a fairly predictable personality as far as bonusses go, where before a well played sage and a poorly played sage were drastically different
    Late game, almost everyone will have maxxed sci, so sci becomes somewhat irrelevant (except amnesia)

    Cons in whoring eyes:
    Unable to get ahead early and dominate late game purely by invested sci anymore.
    Warring Kingdoms can now keep up with sci, and be even by mid-late age, meaning a warring kingdom can be in the ~5-10 spot, win a war, choose land bonus, and project themselves to contend for crown without the innate disadvantage of a lack of sci.
    Science is no longer the "great differentiater" between "pro" whorers and "ghetto" warrers.

    Cons in warring eyes:
    A perception that because there is no sci bonus for winning wars, that noone will want to war. (I don't agree this will be true, it will help promote MORE wars because people wont waste time in a "sci pump" mid-age anymore.
    Difficult Allocation process / Cluttered layout

    Pros:
    Allows for interesting early game strategy surrounding science (Re-allocating scientists into critical categories rather than keeping them stationary, or deciding to keep them steady, actual science decisions need to be made early)
    Names of Scientists (Sure it is cluttered, but all in all kinda cool that scientists are named)
    Generate scientists and experience in war for free (this is huge, warring kingdoms can now keep up with whoring kingdoms science wise (excluding labs of course). War win sci tried to make this happen, but kind of failed in it.)


    Pros to Whoring Kingdoms:
    Not much except that the sci difference between the top 5 whoring kingdoms won't be as drastic, so age wont be over within the first 3-4 weeks anymore for whorers. (always a chance to propel back up with a WW land bonus)

    Pros to Warring Kingdoms:
    Get to see "late game" levels of sci as a warring kingdom.
    Sage can be an actually decent personality to a warring kingdom now (it was OK before, but not great)
    Amnesia becomes pretty relevent at certain times in the age (mid / early stages of late game)
    re-allocating books into and out of military science to bounce attacks and promote deeper chains will help separate "good" warring kingdoms from "bad" warring kingdoms, perhaps helping end wars even quicker.
    When a province is deep chained they will have a harder time getting the modifiers to LL your elf/mystics anymore since science bonusses are not based off current land anymore.

    I would say that the science change all in all helps warring kingdoms more than anyone. I think it promotes a more balanced and competitive late age as there are more options for kd's that are ranked 3-10 in land to have chances at propelling up in land and jumping from warring tier to whoring tier in the mid-age successfully.

    It also helps promote critical thinking and decision making surrounding science right from the get go, which is AWESOME.

    Love it @Bishop, and thanks for the hard work you put into it!
    Last edited by jmiedema; 12-08-2016 at 12:59.

  10. #10
    I like to post Sheister's Avatar
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    Well the extreme randomness I am seeing makes me think there is really only one problem..

    Laboratory is stupidly weak. If I were to crank 50% into a building, I would want to get 4 scientists/day at least. I don't really have a sense of the numbers, but my sense is this would not happen. So it means you can't really pump. If you can't really pump..... then there is no reason for this building.

    The change is probably the strongest anti-growth measure the game has implemented (imho).

    I also find it problematic that you get a flat amount per scientist regardless of acreage so there is no power dip and consolidation period (or at least a much smaller one) when you take on big acres.
    "having fun warring when you have whoring and number 1 as a goal is totally pointless..." - Korp
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    The devs have made a decision to kill competitive utopia and have thereby killed my interest with it.

  11. #11
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    Not getting a bonus in a war win makes it less worth warring.
    Why, because if you get the war win, you get the advantage vs kingdoms that try to bully you. Since even if NW is higher for another kd.

    You can still win if your science is higher.
    I will not war a kd that is bigger with 200-400k NW this age, like i did last age and still won the wars. Since we had HIGHER Science.

    But agree, lets see. But like you said as well "mid-end age"... What happend to early age?

    And about science pumping.. Well KDs will do them this age as well. But do waves on really small kingdoms since 1-3 Scientists is "good" result...

  12. #12
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    Agree, there are a few in the kingdom that have laboratory's but i still gained the same amout of scientists.

  13. #13
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    Agreed, it is dumb, didn't gain a scientist unit Mar15 then get another 5 ticks later, but at least 2 kingdom-mates still have received 0. Forget the disadvantage of joining mid age, it will be even more disheartening to new players who can't be aid pumped to catch up with the rest of the kingdom.

  14. #14
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    well... new players before received bonus books mid-age to help them.. I would imagine the same will be true with scientists. Also, they can explore up cheaply with some kd help and just do abducts for a couple days vs inactives (who still generate scientists all age) to get their scientist level up to the rest of the server.

  15. #15
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    Yes well...

    Lab is such a small bonus.

    3.0% chance to get a scientist
    3.9% chance with revelation or what the spell is called
    1.19% / 1% Lab....
    But it only 1.19% OF 3.0/3.9%

    So basicly Lab is useless :P
    If you have 5% it's.

    5 * 20 h = 1 Scientist if ur LUCKY every 20H of the game :P

    3 * 33 h = 1 Scientist

    Now remember this isn't what you will get, you can get more but you can also get less.
    It's all about LUCK! Not skill, but LUCK....

    Better off to keep the labs gonne all age since they are useless.
    Find a smaller kingdom wave them, either force them to war for a easy war win.
    Or gain free science, easy huh?

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