Some Science System Ideas

[Bart of Sparta]

All quite rudimentary, I will rely on the community to provide good input to fine tune these ideas (and shoot off the bad suggestions!):

Change to science system:

1. You need to invest gold to level up scientists --> the more you invest in a particular scientist the faster it levels up.
2. Reaching higher levels will be relatively easy --> = fun to see ur provs get smarter every day!
3. Scientists have no leveling cap.
4. Can only assign a certain number of scientists per category (say 20). After you have done so, you can only go higher by leveling them up more.
5. Remove random factor from scientist training. Simply have a counter running down --> we are utopians, we like to be able to calc stuff!
6. Significantly decreases returns on getting more sci.

Former system (which did mean decreasing returns, BUT still allowed for huge sci stacking to make a difference):

Science level = Number of scientists*average skill level
Sci effects = (science level)^0.3

I don't know if this was the exact formula, just to make a point. I left out the category modifiers since it's not very important for this argument.

Proposed system (can compare it to income tax brackets in most countries):

In the new system your science level would be chopped up (let's call them box-taxes):

1-50 --> *1 (box 1)
51-100 --> *0.75 (box 2)
101-150 --> *0.6 (box 3)
151-200 --> *0.4 (box 4)
201-250 --> *0.3 (box 5)
251-300 --> *0.2 (box 6)

Number of scientists: 20
Average scientist level: 12
Science level before box-tax = 20*12 = 240
Science level after box-tax = 50 + 37.5 + 30 + 20 + 12 = 149.5
Sci effects: 149.5^0.3 = 4.5

Compare with:

Number of scientists: 20
Average scientist level: 6
Science level before box-tax: 120
Science level after box-tax: 50 + 37.5 + 12 = 99.5
Sci effects: 99.5^0.3 = 4

4.5/4 = 1.125, thus a 12.5% increase for having 2x as high science levels.

Advantages of this system:

Still infinite possible gains --> fun to play tweak with.
Highly educated scientists will now become a saught-after commodity --> the search for the super-professors has begun!

[Drys]

Keep system as is, including caps. Allow players to more drastically affect the scientist generation rate. As suggested in the other thread - make labs and revelate additive to the base sci generation rate. Maybe make universities increase the rate at which scientists level up. Make their an opportunity cost to boosting science - for example building space trades off with econ or sizzle growth in early age. That also allows newly formed provinces "catch up".

[greendragon2000]

Closing the gap of the random generation would help too...many of my Kingdom-mates have nearly 30-60 scientists now where I am still sitting at 19-20? That does not coordinate well...You have some provinces gaining 4 scientists every 2-4 hrs but some only getting 1 every 6-8...How are we supposed to hold our own against a KD during war when we are behind?

[Bishop]

Abduct them.

[Bart of Sparta]

Abduct them.

In all fairness, the same kind applied to sci as it was before. "just do learn attacks, run more sci". The idea was to nerf sci for those that are big early and pull away. But the current system simply doesn't reward prov management (at least not enough).

[jmiedema]

In all fairness, the same kind applied to sci as it was before. "just do learn attacks, run more sci". The idea was to nerf sci for those that are big early and pull away. But the current system simply doesn't reward prov management (at least not enough).

You are kidding me right? The current system is a micro-managing min/maxers wet dream.

[Bishop]

In all fairness, the same kind applied to sci as it was before. "just do learn attacks, run more sci". The idea was to nerf sci for those that are big early and pull away. But the current system simply doesn't reward prov management (at least not enough).

No, in fairness it didn't apply in any similar way to the old system, in the slightest, at all, like even slightly. You cannot compare a fixed, linear growth rate system with capped effects to the old quadratic uncapped system.

There is about a bazillion more opportunity to prov manage with the new system.

[Panthira]

No, in fairness it didn't apply in any similar way to the old system, in the slightest, at all, like even slightly. You cannot compare a fixed, linear growth rate system with capped effects to the old quadratic uncapped system.

There is about a bazillion more opportunity to prov manage with the new system.

Agreed with that points above. I see how this would be really fun and add interesting elements to the game. The only concerns I have are:
* Spawn rate is roll of the dice, with labs increasing odds only very slightly
* Abductions will cause major upset, Especially with spawning rate so low, and not all provs are attackers.
* Labs take up too much build space for the little they do. Telling TMs to trade valuable build space for labs is not going to work well, imho.

[Palem]

I will say there's some things that are a little questionable.

Let's say an average province gets 5 scientists per year (seems higher than what's being reported but I'm trying to account for reporter bias). Over 12 weeks, that's 60 scientists, 78 total without any abducts. Bishop said an average province should have around 120 scientists by the end of the age.

That doesn't add up. Unless the rate you get scientists isn't a flat rate throughout the age or Bishop expects an average province to double their scientists count through abducts throughout the age (which doesn't account for things either since it's a zero-sum attack) it doesn't seem like natural production is where it's supposed to be

[Panthira]

He said that is max. Average is 80 and with labs I think 95.

Zero sum attack. Huh.

I would like to suggest that labs and Unis be one building (Unis) to protect and create. I believe this will be a step in solving some of the issues.

[Palem]

Age changes say average should be 80-120. Even if you cut that right down the middle, still short of hitting 100. I'm not sure at what point abducts will start to be a productive choice so it's hard to get an idea of how much one could reasonably expect to get.

Zero sum attack. Huh.

Yes. Abducts create no new scientists. If I gain 6 off you, you lost 6, so the average doesn't change.

[Bo To]

Age changes say average should be 80-120.

He said based on mods. So I think 120 is plausible if you have 20% labs for the entire age and revelation on 24/7.

[JokerX]

There is about a bazillion more opportunity to prov manage with the new system.

Seriously? You take away a complete layer of the game and now we have more opportunities ? LOL

I think some of Barts ideas are good enough to discuss them, but you keep your eyes shut and say everything is perfect now. Keep listening to your fanboys that say everything is cool, that way you don't have to think about the critiques. Guess we are all just haters eh ? ...

[Bishop]

Seriously? You take away a complete layer of the game and now we have more opportunities ? LOL

I think some of Barts ideas are good enough to discuss them, but you keep your eyes shut and say everything is perfect now. Keep listening to your fanboys that say everything is cool, that way you don't have to think about the critiques. Guess we are all just haters eh ? ...

Show me where I said everything was perfect.

What is your constructive addition to the discussion? Because insulting me will earn you a quick vacation.

[JokerX]

Sorry Bishop if i went overboard, but when i think of your sarcastic answers to some questions, your not better urself sometimes. I'm not as stubborn as it may appear, so point taken, constructive addition coming.
I know i have been *****ing about the science change and if it stays like this i would really become a hater. But i also see that it has potential, i like the idea to change my science every moment of the game. Of course that comes with a prize, but it should, that makes a huge impact. On the other hand, once you have enough scientist, there is nothing against running some scientist as "hoppers", helping out with what is needed the most.

5. Remove random factor from scientist training. Simply have a counter running down --> we are utopians, we like to be able to calc stuff!
To give a global counter would be a good idea. That way everyone would have the same amount (unless abductet). It would even out the fact that there can be kingdoms filled with lucky and unlucky provinces.

Or reduce the effect from scientists and let us train them like wizards. You could decide how important science is yourself. And how fast you want to hit the max bonus. Even though it takes away the "global fairness" that way, it may give you the feeling back that YOU decide about your province.


1. You need to invest gold to level up scientists --> the more you invest in a particular scientist the faster it levels up.
I like the idea, but i would cap the speed. Say about max speed x2 maybe even x3.
Can also be discussed if you like to do it per scientist or science type.
But i can't say anything how much it should cost though.

@ Bart of Sparta
3. Scientists have no leveling cap.
So you could have 1 scientist and reach max alchemy bonus ?
Or that there are no caps in science types ?