Whats with the new SCIENCE

[Goodwitch]

I don't even care if it's that science costs gc...just go back to earning it. If you don't want to base it on gc then come up with some other way to earn it.
15 more science points and I am maxed without doing a thing for it. I asked to be able to turn science off. It's boring to have an advantage that wasn't earned in one way or another. At this point I am considering to release defense and rename my province to "take my science please". (except my monarch would be very unhappy about that of course).
I am a decent player, there are better, but I generally get the job done. In the past I could say I had skill. Now I am just lucky.

[RedPanda]

I miss having 250-400 BPA in everything, it was hard to do but really rewarding.... and this is in warring kingdoms, not growth kingdoms. It isnt that it was impossible to have high science back then, but it was that everyone didn't care how their total science was other than their main role's science.

Now it is just having 80% draft rate, and 200% wages and call it a day, being there is nothing else to do..... other than send aid
Abduct? That isn't going to happen unless you pick an attacker race being the gains are horrid (ie 0) unless EVERYTHING is in the best possible gains area.
Universities? Even if you get 50% universities the bonus is so small that having an T/M build Stables/TG and attack someone might have a better chance than that.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

i just dont understand why ppl are complaining about not being able to spend money on science, and having increasing their draft rates faster.. i think that was one of the intentions behind no-gc science, and while you are already at drafting higher than you used to, start warring more frequently as well.. as much as i am not fan of pure luck-based science generation, i am equally happy to be rid of required science pump periods/downtimes to be able to run competitive science..

[Ethan]

Back with old sci I could fight from 60% DR, even 55% if I had to. Didn't even go above 65%. I took that "prep time" and spent it getting good sci, and that covered up the low DR. (And the low DR kept feeding the better sci.)

Right now, I'm nearing the week mark of pumping elites between war end and max time fort. I'll be 73% Dr before I raze my homes... I bet I go negative income. Because now the only right answer is draft stupidly deep, and that takes a long time. It has been a really dull week, I've forgotten to log in a few times because there is nothing to do.

Used to be I could *do something* with the gc I got from lower draft, now they are just plunder bait.


I don't know if I was somehow a god of the old system or something, but it used to be *much faster* to get war ready. All those week long sci pump people just struck me as being really bad at this whole econ thing, and if they didn't learn after all those ages I figured there wasn't much helping them. Now I gotta waste all my time like the dumb pumpers did, when I used to be *fast*.


(caustic) TLDR - War teir sci pumpers were stupid. Now game is stupid enough for them to be good anyway.

[RedPanda]

i just dont understand why ppl are complaining about not being able to spend money on science, and having increasing their draft rates faster.. i think that was one of the intentions behind no-gc science, and while you are already at drafting higher than you used to, start warring more frequently as well.. as much as i am not fan of pure luck-based science generation, i am equally happy to be rid of required science pump periods/downtimes to be able to run competitive science..

First, most people would need to draft higher to make up for the crappier science. It isnt that having better science you will draft deeper.

Second you dont need to have science pump periods to hit 200bpa in all categories, its 250-400bpa that most people cant do unless they are micromanaging their kingdom.

Also the drafting targets has not changed the draft target has always been between 65-80%

It can mean two things:
if your some how drafting higher than before it means your play style changed (or your monarch is asking you to do something)
or
you need to draft more than before to be in the same amount of troops/acre compared to before due to the science is crappier than before

I fall into the second category being my possible max science in the old system is usually at least 1.5-2x higher than the current system, I right now have to have ~2-3x more the amount of homes (30-40% homes) AND draft higher, and to make it worse that I cannot hit 100 BE with that many homes.

[jmiedema]

If you have a problem with the amount of bonusses you are getting compared to before, a logical solution would be to suggest that the science caps get amended.. not to scrap the whole system.

I assume what you are actually meaning is that you like the idea that by dedicating extra time (particularly if your kingdom sits around without warring much) you like the idea that by the end of the age you have more science than a lot of people, and that feeling makes you feel good.

What really ends up happening, is that some provinces keep their science on, even when they are like a day or two before war, and sometimes even during war, which end up with the people who put in extra sci asking for gc from the other people in the kingdom that were smart enough to turn off their sci. Then the selfish ones with extra sci brag about it at the end of the age, conveniently forgetting all the gc they took from their teammates to get them there. It is a nightmare for monarch's trying to tell people to turn off their sci.

Also, I find some of the caps don't make sense, and there have been suggestion threads to amend those caps. To balance the sci caps a bit.

What I DO like about the new science system is that it opens up early age bonusses that were previously unavailable. T/M's were generally pretty weak in the first war or two of the age, because their modifiers (and raw tpa/wpa) hadn't quite gotten to a healthy level yet. With the new sci, they now have access to numbers like +100-150% crime/channeling which allows them to be more viable early age especially for rune efficiency. Before, early ages mages had to run like 20-30% towers just to burn through their mana. Because of low acre rune inefficiency.

I think the new sci balances sci a bit better across the entire age, instead of currently where really sci is fairly equal for first half of the age, and you really don't see real benefits until near the end of the age.

It is maybe possible to change the new system to have a Diminishing Return effect the more scientists are in a category, maybe even mix that with a much larger cap (kind of like uncapped previous sci).

[s0830887]

Science is generally good, with a few small issues (randomness, low spawn rate, slightly skewed science balances, etc). Generally I like it. It has sped up prep time significantly, and it has actually benefited attackers more than t/ms, something that has hurt me a bit as E/H but I appreciate as being fairer given that t/ms can stack honour in a way that attackers can't. Kinda evens them out.

[changeling]

This science system is a lot simpler, but I think tilts the balance too far against T/Ms who now have no reliable way of building up science.

[Bo To]

This science system is a lot simpler, but I think tilts the balance too far against T/Ms who now have no reliable way of building up science.

This is not actually an issue. I'm ok with attackers having better sci than t/ms.

The problem is the huge difference between t/ms. Atm I have 62 scientists(6 aren't professors) and I haven't lost any from abducts. I know there are t/ms with 100+ from luck only. Now they are much more efficient than me and there is nothing I can do about it. That's the problem.

[jmiedema]

This is not actually an issue. I'm ok with attackers having better sci than t/ms.

The problem is the huge difference between t/ms. Atm I have 62 scientists(6 aren't professors) and I haven't lost any from abducts. I know there are t/ms with 100+ from luck only. Now they are much more efficient than me and there is nothing I can do about it. That's the problem.

Yep that is basically the problem. You can have 2 identical provinces in the same kingdom doing everything the exact same, but one gets 60 scientists and one gets 80-90. That is not good design imo for a hardcore strategy game. You have to make the randomness curve between all provinces not as drastic, and make things like revelation and abducts be the differentiator.

[Meish]

Well..I do miss the sceince reward from after war: made you feel like a winner.

Also, this is the first age ever I sometimes had money and I didnt know what to spend in on resulting in getting pillaged.

So, yes, I miss the old sceince;)

[The Moon]

It seems to me that there is now less to do in the game without books and this is a negative. I appreciate the newness and originality but i hope for the return of books and Libraries! Perhaps a poll in an Age or two...

[NighT]

Pretty much stayed out of the whole science-discussion, as I wanted to wait the age to see how things played out. With the age nearing its end (I hope) I figured I'd get my suggestion in.

Why not just go back to last age' system, but instead of buying books, you buy books per acre? That solves the whole scaling-thingy when growing/dropping acres. If people like the fact that they had their TMs playable right from the start, just start with a higher BPA than the old 1500 books (3.5 bpa)? Can still do hardcaps like this age, although the level of the caps should be readjusted.

This uncontrollable random bullcrap needs to stop ;p

[Earth]

Yea we can keep this science system, just the change the way it functions 100%.

1) LIKE FIRST AND FOREMOST NO RANDOM SPAWNING OF SCIENTIST. EQUAL SPAWNS FOR ALL...we are all here for the same amount of time why do some have 100 and some have 60?
2) Like food science, ffs 1 scientist should increase it 10%, its just FOOD, why is the multiplier so ridiculously small
3) If T/ms need to abduct again to max out science it aint right....this system design is broken and needs to be fixed
4) Please for the love of god to not make anyone spend another minute switching through 75 different scientist to perform ops. If your not using munk this game has to be about unbearable. Seriously don't underestimate how lame you made gameplay with this move. MOBILE USERS make up a large majority of the population here, start thinking about them when making changes that that require you to click on things individually 35x's before you can perform an op
5) RAISE THE CAPS....15% BE, 125% wpa/tpa, these are not enough


Please for the love of god do something for science to make it not so dull even if you don't listen to a word that was said in this entire thread. I personally have wasted at least 2 hours ( probably more) of my life through that last 16 weeks just switching scientist around before and after ops. If this is the future of the game, I am sure alot of people won't enjoy this aspect of what you created.

[NakMuay]

Why has no one talked about diminishing returns on scientists?

Or I just haven't read it. Straight shot to the current numbers, diminishing returns above them - so that people can make use of their extra scientists, or choose to stack them where they choose to double down on something at the cost of only half the efficiency or so of something else they aren't using.

Yes, normalize science spawns (perhaps over a 2 year [week] period, or 4 year [week] period - to keep the feeling of randomness, but so that everyone has the same amount every 4 weeks)
If you won't change the abduct science system... Create a way for T/M's to farm science - lab %, give a spell to all predominantly t/m's races for increased science gains (and humans I guess - revelate works - add to elves and halfers since faeries already have it, increase the $)

Create an option to move more than one scientists at a time - automatically pulling the scientists with the least amount of hours from the pool available.

And yeah food multiplier is a bit ridiculous. No need to break the current system, don't know how difficult it would be to change the code on some of this, just small changes to keep the spirit but improve the user experience.