Suggestion: Remove/Rework OOW Razes:

[Quacky-T]

As title says, either Remove the possibility of OOW razes or change the conditions for when it can be done.


I know that many feel OOW raze is an important tool to police unwanted behaviour or for the little guys to stand up to the big guys, but it is also a mechanic that in its current form carries too much power.


Perhaps I have been playing in sheltered KD's in the past, but OOW interference in wars used to be very rare. The last few ages, I've received such threats on several occasion each age, mostly for "smaller" offenses (Stealing gc's, retalling hits, doing a hit, etc..) - nothing I would have considered out of the ordinary in this game. Yet the bar for where such a threat is issued seems to be lowering.

Personally Im prone to not caring all that much, but when you play with 21 other people (In a warring KD), you have to take the teams well being into consideration as well - and as Sheister so aptly has proved with his ongoing strife with Dungeon Dwellers (KD), even a single province can cause significant harm.


The problem that arise is on 1 hand you will want a way for KD's to police the actions of other KD's as well as a way for smaller guys to resist bullies. On the other hand when this mechanic is used for griefing, there really is no defense against it and a single province may ruin 2-3 months of gameplay for 22 other players.

Sure you can say the 22 players in a KD need to do better diplo, but in order for your own KD to get anywhere in utopia, you can't go around making friends with everyone. And with the current situation, stepping on the toes of just 1 province is enough to have your age ruined.



The conflict between Sheister/RoO & DD also sets another (dangerous) precedent. The CF offered DD repeatedly included that DD should offer acres to another un-involved KD to avoid further razes into their wars.
Firstly - wouldn't this be part chart shaping ?

Secondly - this tactic can be applied to any KD whose main aim is war. Create a satellite KD with 5 slacking players and have them make the same threat to all warring KD's - either they give up acres to a desired KD or they will be razed during their wars. For any warring KD they either have to give up the age to keep the little satellite KD down or they give up the acres to play their age as intended. As Sheister proved, you dont really need a lot of manpower to mess with another KD. A single province may cause enough havoc on it's own. A small KD with 5 Avian/Warriors can raze 375 acres per unique.

In addition a single player (Griefer) utilizing a computer, a tablet and a phone may play 3 provinces that will pass virtually undetectable in their random KD's until they start razing the target KD during their war. Even if destroyed, it only takes 24h before the Griefing player can repeat the process.



As it stands I think this mechanic puts too much power in the hands of single players/small KD's and gives a few players the potential to destroy the fun for many other players. Especially as the KD victim of this mechanic are powerless to stop it.

I therefore suggest to look into the following:
A) Remove the option of razing into others wars entirely. (Removes the problem all together, but also removes policing options as well as possibility of smaller KD's to stand up to bigger ones)

B) Remove possibility of razing into other KD's wars from small "retirement" ghetto's. (Say you have to have at least 20 players in a KD to be able to raze others). If you are already "retiring" from active game play you shouldnt have the option to spite other players for the fun of it.

C) Let Razes be possible only if there is an active hostile meter - meaning that KD A can only raze into KD B's war as long as KD B is still unfriendly (or has at least 1 point on the hostile meter etc..) towards KD A.

D) Other options

[Thunder TA]

Already multiple threads on this where its been gone over. One just today .might check there as some of your questions may have already been went over

[Sweetiepie]

As title says, either Remove the possibility of OOW razes or change the conditions for when it can be done.


I know that many feel OOW raze is an important tool to police unwanted behaviour or for the little guys to stand up to the big guys, but it is also a mechanic that in its current form carries too much power.


Perhaps I have been playing in sheltered KD's in the past, but OOW interference in wars used to be very rare. The last few ages, I've received such threats on several occasion each age, mostly for "smaller" offenses (Stealing gc's, retalling hits, doing a hit, etc..) - nothing I would have considered out of the ordinary in this game. Yet the bar for where such a threat is issued seems to be lowering.

Personally Im prone to not caring all that much, but when you play with 21 other people (In a warring KD), you have to take the teams well being into consideration as well - and as Sheister so aptly has proved with his ongoing strife with Dungeon Dwellers (KD), even a single province can cause significant harm.


The problem that arise is on 1 hand you will want a way for KD's to police the actions of other KD's as well as a way for smaller guys to resist bullies. On the other hand when this mechanic is used for griefing, there really is no defense against it and a single province may ruin 2-3 months of gameplay for 22 other players.

Sure you can say the 22 players in a KD need to do better diplo, but in order for your own KD to get anywhere in utopia, you can't go around making friends with everyone. And with the current situation, stepping on the toes of just 1 province is enough to have your age ruined.



The conflict between Sheister/RoO & DD also sets another (dangerous) precedent. The CF offered DD repeatedly included that DD should offer acres to another un-involved KD to avoid further razes into their wars.
Firstly - wouldn't this be part chart shaping ?

Secondly - this tactic can be applied to any KD whose main aim is war. Create a satellite KD with 5 slacking players and have them make the same threat to all warring KD's - either they give up acres to a desired KD or they will be razed during their wars. For any warring KD they either have to give up the age to keep the little satellite KD down or they give up the acres to play their age as intended. As Sheister proved, you dont really need a lot of manpower to mess with another KD. A single province may cause enough havoc on it's own. A small KD with 5 Avian/Warriors can raze 375 acres per unique.

In addition a single player (Griefer) utilizing a computer, a tablet and a phone may play 3 provinces that will pass virtually undetectable in their random KD's until they start razing the target KD during their war. Even if destroyed, it only takes 24h before the Griefing player can repeat the process.



As it stands I think this mechanic puts too much power in the hands of single players/small KD's and gives a few players the potential to destroy the fun for many other players. Especially as the KD victim of this mechanic are powerless to stop it.

I therefore suggest to look into the following:
A) Remove the option of razing into others wars entirely. (Removes the problem all together, but also removes policing options as well as possibility of smaller KD's to stand up to bigger ones)

B) Remove possibility of razing into other KD's wars from small "retirement" ghetto's. (Say you have to have at least 20 players in a KD to be able to raze others). If you are already "retiring" from active game play you shouldnt have the option to spite other players for the fun of it.

C) Let Razes be possible only if there is an active hostile meter - meaning that KD A can only raze into KD B's war as long as KD B is still unfriendly (or has at least 1 point on the hostile meter etc..) towards KD A.

D) Other options

Agree with you that Sheister and co aside, these raze threats have risen markedly, it's become a knee jerk reaction to the issue the threat of OOW raze.

I agree with your thinking, and I like your suggestions Quacky especially option C. It gives an element of proportionality to these situations.
Option B allows policing, but only the top couple of kingdoms ever have that comfort and assistance so personally I don't care if they have to do their razing another time.

[khronosschoty]

This suggestion gives bigger kingdoms the ability to bully with little consequence and seems to forget that bigger kingdoms are and do "grief" smaller kingdoms... or else what do you call it when a bigger kingdom goes out of their way to enforce their aggression even tho it no longer profits them or it profits them in such a small way its practically a waste of time.

The only players this would appeal to IMO are those who like to bully, and want some level of immunity from consequences that would matter to them.

[Quacky-T]

Yes, I agree, you would ideally want some some balance, hence my suggestion C.


The problem is that this mechanic is open for anyone to exploit at any time without any risk or much effort involved - and there is no defense against it.

Remember "the Utopia Griefer" that featured a couple of times on the forum ? He would slowly build up his province then start intra razing his KD mates - then put the whole fun up on Youtube.
(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_...pyu66Aw/videos ... scroll down a bit and you'll find his exploits from ******. He has removed to 150-200 videos he made from griefing Utopia players)
Had he been clever enough to simply raze into peoples wars he would have been able to cause a whole lot more damage to a lot more people.

[Pillz]

Yes, I agree, you would ideally want some some balance, hence my suggestion C.


The problem is that this mechanic is open for anyone to exploit at any time without any risk or much effort involved - and there is no defense against it.

Remember "the Utopia Griefer" that featured a couple of times on the forum ? He would slowly build up his province then start intra razing his KD mates - then put the whole fun up on Youtube.
(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_...pyu66Aw/videos ... scroll down a bit and you'll find his exploits from ******. He has removed to 150-200 videos he made from griefing Utopia players)
Had he been clever enough to simply raze into peoples wars he would have been able to cause a whole lot more damage to a lot more people.

lmao