The war against Islamic extremism

[handofthrawn]

Isis is a completely brutal organization that goes out of their way to kill and torture civilians. They kill children and put their heads on spikes or hang them from trees. There is nothing good about that organization and make the Nazis look like saints with there actions.

[octobrev]

What business does the military have policing social norms in foreign nations? Is it acceptable for me to come into your house and kill you because I don't like the way you discipline your children?

[octobrev]

No, Russia is the destabilizing factor on Russia's borders.

I think he's drawing a parallel between Russia being the cause of the destabilization along their borders while blaming NATO and the US being the cause of middle-eastern destabilization while blaming ISIS.

[Nanka]

Lands are originally within iraq and syrias borders, both nations the us helped destablized. If any, ISIS shd be thanking us intervention for their founding rather than retaliate for their eventual demise. Pointless loss of lives in any scenario if anyone cares. And isis is also a good example of radical extremist islam, not people you want to be neighbours with. Ask assad if you would, afaik he wants them gone too.

[StratOcastle]

That's what's interesting about my US: we want to ousts a guy that's allegedly saying everything I hear common citizens say in idle conversation.

Octo basically is ditto my thinking. Then we get upset about Russia while we destabilize regions all over their borders.

I don't have time to draw chronological circles. Not many good guys involved, but good could've come from the actions of a few.

[Palem]

You could certainly abide by it. Attempting to act like a sovereign nation would most certainly going a long way in getting globally recognized as such.

But more to your point, you're right. They aren't a nation. They're a terrorist group that has declared war on the United States (among others). We aren't going in and policing the social norms of another nation. We're exterminating a terrorist group that has declared war on us and just about every other non Muslim nation on the globe.

Really it comes down to treating others the way you'd like to be treated. They attack us, so we attack them. It just so happens that they are a flimsy terrorist organisation that decided to attack the largest military on the planet and it's really not going the way they thought it would.

I'll also make note of the fact that the US is pretty good friends with Saudi Arabia, whose social norms are far from what would be considered acceptable in the US. So the general idea that we're policing the world based on values different than ours is just a flawed premise from the get go

[Chanain]

I am confident there will be extremists in the future. Is harder to say if most of the extremists will be religious or if more will be focused on something else. Historically religion has generated large numbers of people willing to die. Attempts by empires to crush religious movements frequently made them grow.

Interesting question: Does religion *generate* people willing to die for a cause? Or does it merely attract unstable people who are looking to die for a cause? (Or, more likely, some combination of the two?)

Consider the 'lone wolf' attacks we've seen in Canada and the US by ISIL sympathizers. To the best of my knowledge, none of these attacks actually had any meaningful contact with ISIL itself - ISIL isn't actively involved in staging attacks in North America, but is actually putting more effort into *recruiting* people from North America to travel *to* the middle east. The folks who have launched attacks in ISIL's name are usually home grown, frequently Muslim converts (i.e. raised with little or no connection to the Muslim faith), and often have a criminal record and/or history of mental health issues. There are even cases where Muslim communities (mosques or other organizations) have kicked these converts out because of their extremist views.

These people aren't being indoctrinated. These are people just looking for a justification to commit suicide by cop.

Similarly, extremism even within the middle east is often at *least* as political as it is religious. Religion is used as the catalyst, the justification, for abhorrent acts of violence, but the goals are often political in nature. When a guy straps a bomb to himself and blows himself up to oppose American interests or a west-supported government, could it have something to do with the probability that a family member of his has been killed by an American drone strike? Palestinian Muslims join Hamas to fight against Israel...really think it's religious indoctrination? Or could it be a fight against Israeli occupation of their homes?

Religion isn't largely the reason for these conflicts. Religion is a tool that political actors use to help motivate and justify their side's militant acts.

This is what happens when you engage in regime change in countries you don't belong in. How can you attack a region then get upset when the losing party retaliates? They've been nothing but righteous in their dealings in spite of their strange religious fervor.

Maybe it's time to recognize them as a legitimate state (which was so arrogantly taken away from them under Saddam) and provide financing/reparations to rebuild. I'm sure they would also appreciate an apology and admission of guilt from the US and their allies.

There is no security without peace.

Octo, while I recognize your point about the US interfering with the internal matters of other groups (and often quite violently), and I would absolutely agree that killing Saddam was a huge mistake, ISIL is a pretty brutal group in its local dealings, too. Most of us know ISIL because, as middle east terror groups go, they have a pretty good social media presence - no, I'm not kidding, they're playing western media like a finely tuned fiddle, feeding news outlets with great 'shock value' footage and headlines. ISIL declaring war on America? Come on, seriously? ISIL is a local group of guerrilla fighters, which gets attention because of its brutal tactics and shocking actions, but it has fewer fighters and *significantly* less money and hardware than the *Canadian* military, and we're widely known for our military being a joke. ISIL doesn't have the resources or even much desire to wage a fight against the United States. They'd rather secure themselves into power in their own geographical area.

But does that mean that we should recognize them as a state? Or not fight them? Considering their actions and rhetoric, we're perfectly justified in condemning and fighting them, though there's a legitimate question as to what we would hope to accomplish - noting that the last time we (as in, the west) tried to change a regime in Iraq, it took over a trillion dollars, a decade, thousands of lost troops, and merely resulted in the rise of something worse than the regime we sought to change. But they're barely more than a band of marauders right now. Palem's right - if they start acting like a government, instead of a paramilitary organization, then that could raise additional questions: If they start actually *governing* the people within their territorial control, and manage to retain that control with a degree of stability for a period of time, then maybe we start asking questions about whether or not statehood is appropriate. (Of course, there are other political concerns, too. That region gets really complicated. They want parts of different countries, and different proposed countries. It's going to be a real mess for a long time, and ISIL is just complicating it more.)

[octobrev]

They've been doing a lot of governing! Collecting taxes, providing schooling, and brutally enforcing the (sharia) law. They've even assembled a military to protect their growing interests. It really resembles a younger US (from their revolutionary days).

A good size chunk of their people/leadership is from Saddam's original regime. If they're acting any worse than they have previously it's probably because they're stuck engaging in asymmetric warfare against the western powers that removed them from play for absolutely no reason whatsoever. The British very much viewed the US revolutionary groups as terrorists as well because they weren't lining up and exchanging gunfire in open fields as was the norm. They hid in the bushes like guerrilla fighters and brutally assassinated honorable soldiers.

[MyNameIsMatija]

Did you say Saudi Arabia?

[khronosschoty]

What is "Islamic extremism" anyway? Someone who follows Islam without exceptions?

[kendy]

What is "Islamic extremism" anyway? Someone who follows Islam without exceptions?

All extremism is the same. Anybody who follows propaganda w/o using logic. Like the followers of Trump who parrot Fox Noise.
Squawk, Poly wants a tax break for Billionaires.
Abortion is evil but state supported murder of inmates on Death row is great
Obamacare is evil but our members of Congress deserve my tax supported Health care.
Bush 43 invaded Iraq w/o any exit strategy and caused the downfall of 5-6 middle east govs. We are surprised by the extremism in Europe that followed. Hell just kill all Muslims is the only answer.

This country is a big joke to the rest of Earth.

[khronosschoty]

All extremism is the same. Anybody who follows propaganda w/o using logic. Like the followers of Trump who parrot Fox Noise.
Squawk, Poly wants a tax break for Billionaires.
Abortion is evil but state supported murder of inmates on Death row is great
Obamacare is evil but our members of Congress deserve my tax supported Health care.
Bush 43 invaded Iraq w/o any exit strategy and caused the downfall of 5-6 middle east govs. We are surprised by the extremism in Europe that followed. Hell just kill all Muslims is the only answer.

This country is a big joke to the rest of Earth.

WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
extremism
n 1: any political theory favoring immoderate uncompromising
policies


I'll try and look it up in a decent oxford dictionary... I did online search on a oxford dictionary but I suspect there is better oxford dictionaries than what I received for results.

Point I am trying to make is, one could be rightly called an extremist for good things or bad things...

[handofthrawn]

What is "Islamic extremism" anyway? Someone who follows Islam without exceptions?

Islamic extremists carries out jihad as instructed in the Koran. When I was in the military we where educated on our enemy which is these extremist. Problem is any Muslim can wake up one day and become a Islamic extremist. Koran is very specific on how to treat non believers. The extremist just follows the Holy Koran to the letter. Many people have tried to answer the why peaceful Muslims become radical islamic extremist. Generally most research I have seen done, points to life changing events, enivorment or just seeking a higher level of religious State. Hope that helps answer your question.

[Palem]

Problem is any Muslim can wake up one day and become a Islamic extremist.

That's some might fine fear mongering you've got going there.

Koran is very specific on how to treat non believers. The extremist just follows the Holy Koran to the letter.

Yea, just look at this stuff...

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

****, wait, that's the bible ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

Many people have tried to answer the why peaceful Muslims become radical islamic extremist.

Brainwashing via propaganda (or in some cases, anti-muslim reality). Its not all that complicated

[kendy]

Brainwashing via propaganda is not all that complicated

That's eggsactly what I've been saying about Rupert Murdock and Fox. Why does the US allow a foreign national to spew his fascist extreme right lies?
I am 100% sure HoT is a nice guy, I also believe nothing he chats. I do read it.
I have never read the Koran, don't plan to, but I've always heard it says nothing about Jihad on nations.

I am mystified by the 3 main religions praying to the God, the ONLY God of Abraham, killing each other every day for eons. Since time began.
Am I my Brothers keeper?
What hypocrites we are. Jews killing Jew, Christians killing Christians, Muslims killing Muslims, and every amalgam of those 3. Man, Woman, Child all in the name of God...
I thank God every day I am an Atheist.

@ khrono : sure shinto, budist, hindu, pagan, etc too; but when an atheist kills its not hypocrisy its only against the law of man and morally wrong.

I was chatting more about war; gang violins; or old terror vendettas, I am old enough to remember the terror attacks of the IRA vs England for example. I did not mean murder such as for stealing, or crimes of passion.