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Thread: The war against Islamic extremism

  1. #16
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    That's what's interesting about my US: we want to ousts a guy that's allegedly saying everything I hear common citizens say in idle conversation.

    Octo basically is ditto my thinking. Then we get upset about Russia while we destabilize regions all over their borders.

    I don't have time to draw chronological circles. Not many good guys involved, but good could've come from the actions of a few.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by StratOcastle View Post
    Octo basically is ditto my thinking. Then we get upset about Russia while we destabilize regions all over their borders.
    Which borders would that be? Russia doesn't share a border with Syria, nor Afghanistan or Iraq, nor any other country the US has invaded in recent history.
    Russia is quite capable of destabilizing their own borders with, Ukraine, Georgia & Estonia.
    Now if by destabilize you mean NATO "encroaching" on their border, I'd argue that it does the exact opposite, it stabilizes the border because it's become readily apparent in Ukraine how "stable" borders with Russia are and what happens when a weaker nation doesn't follow the orders from Moscow.

    No, Russia is the destabilizing factor on Russia's borders.
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    Isis is a completely brutal organization that goes out of their way to kill and torture civilians. They kill children and put their heads on spikes or hang them from trees. There is nothing good about that organization and make the Nazis look like saints with there actions.

  4. #19
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
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    What business does the military have policing social norms in foreign nations? Is it acceptable for me to come into your house and kill you because I don't like the way you discipline your children?

  5. #20
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    No, Russia is the destabilizing factor on Russia's borders.
    I think he's drawing a parallel between Russia being the cause of the destabilization along their borders while blaming NATO and the US being the cause of middle-eastern destabilization while blaming ISIS.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by octobrev View Post
    What business does the military have policing social norms in foreign nations? Is it acceptable for me to come into your house and kill you because I don't like the way you discipline your children?
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  7. #22
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    Doesn't look like ISIS has signed yet! Can you even engage in such treaties before you're recognized as a nation-state?

  8. #23
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    You could certainly abide by it. Attempting to act like a sovereign nation would most certainly going a long way in getting globally recognized as such.

    But more to your point, you're right. They aren't a nation. They're a terrorist group that has declared war on the United States (among others). We aren't going in and policing the social norms of another nation. We're exterminating a terrorist group that has declared war on us and just about every other non Muslim nation on the globe.

    Really it comes down to treating others the way you'd like to be treated. They attack us, so we attack them. It just so happens that they are a flimsy terrorist organisation that decided to attack the largest military on the planet and it's really not going the way they thought it would.

    I'll also make note of the fact that the US is pretty good friends with Saudi Arabia, whose social norms are far from what would be considered acceptable in the US. So the general idea that we're policing the world based on values different than ours is just a flawed premise from the get go

  9. #24
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    Did you say Saudi Arabia?


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathetic sheep View Post
    I am confident there will be extremists in the future. Is harder to say if most of the extremists will be religious or if more will be focused on something else. Historically religion has generated large numbers of people willing to die. Attempts by empires to crush religious movements frequently made them grow.
    Interesting question: Does religion *generate* people willing to die for a cause? Or does it merely attract unstable people who are looking to die for a cause? (Or, more likely, some combination of the two?)

    Consider the 'lone wolf' attacks we've seen in Canada and the US by ISIL sympathizers. To the best of my knowledge, none of these attacks actually had any meaningful contact with ISIL itself - ISIL isn't actively involved in staging attacks in North America, but is actually putting more effort into *recruiting* people from North America to travel *to* the middle east. The folks who have launched attacks in ISIL's name are usually home grown, frequently Muslim converts (i.e. raised with little or no connection to the Muslim faith), and often have a criminal record and/or history of mental health issues. There are even cases where Muslim communities (mosques or other organizations) have kicked these converts out because of their extremist views.

    These people aren't being indoctrinated. These are people just looking for a justification to commit suicide by cop.

    Similarly, extremism even within the middle east is often at *least* as political as it is religious. Religion is used as the catalyst, the justification, for abhorrent acts of violence, but the goals are often political in nature. When a guy straps a bomb to himself and blows himself up to oppose American interests or a west-supported government, could it have something to do with the probability that a family member of his has been killed by an American drone strike? Palestinian Muslims join Hamas to fight against Israel...really think it's religious indoctrination? Or could it be a fight against Israeli occupation of their homes?

    Religion isn't largely the reason for these conflicts. Religion is a tool that political actors use to help motivate and justify their side's militant acts.

    Quote Originally Posted by octobrev View Post
    This is what happens when you engage in regime change in countries you don't belong in. How can you attack a region then get upset when the losing party retaliates? They've been nothing but righteous in their dealings in spite of their strange religious fervor.

    Maybe it's time to recognize them as a legitimate state (which was so arrogantly taken away from them under Saddam) and provide financing/reparations to rebuild. I'm sure they would also appreciate an apology and admission of guilt from the US and their allies.

    There is no security without peace.
    Octo, while I recognize your point about the US interfering with the internal matters of other groups (and often quite violently), and I would absolutely agree that killing Saddam was a huge mistake, ISIL is a pretty brutal group in its local dealings, too. Most of us know ISIL because, as middle east terror groups go, they have a pretty good social media presence - no, I'm not kidding, they're playing western media like a finely tuned fiddle, feeding news outlets with great 'shock value' footage and headlines. ISIL declaring war on America? Come on, seriously? ISIL is a local group of guerrilla fighters, which gets attention because of its brutal tactics and shocking actions, but it has fewer fighters and *significantly* less money and hardware than the *Canadian* military, and we're widely known for our military being a joke. ISIL doesn't have the resources or even much desire to wage a fight against the United States. They'd rather secure themselves into power in their own geographical area.

    But does that mean that we should recognize them as a state? Or not fight them? Considering their actions and rhetoric, we're perfectly justified in condemning and fighting them, though there's a legitimate question as to what we would hope to accomplish - noting that the last time we (as in, the west) tried to change a regime in Iraq, it took over a trillion dollars, a decade, thousands of lost troops, and merely resulted in the rise of something worse than the regime we sought to change. But they're barely more than a band of marauders right now. Palem's right - if they start acting like a government, instead of a paramilitary organization, then that could raise additional questions: If they start actually *governing* the people within their territorial control, and manage to retain that control with a degree of stability for a period of time, then maybe we start asking questions about whether or not statehood is appropriate. (Of course, there are other political concerns, too. That region gets really complicated. They want parts of different countries, and different proposed countries. It's going to be a real mess for a long time, and ISIL is just complicating it more.)

  11. #26
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    They've been doing a lot of governing! Collecting taxes, providing schooling, and brutally enforcing the (sharia) law. They've even assembled a military to protect their growing interests. It really resembles a younger US (from their revolutionary days).

    A good size chunk of their people/leadership is from Saddam's original regime. If they're acting any worse than they have previously it's probably because they're stuck engaging in asymmetric warfare against the western powers that removed them from play for absolutely no reason whatsoever. The British very much viewed the US revolutionary groups as terrorists as well because they weren't lining up and exchanging gunfire in open fields as was the norm. They hid in the bushes like guerrilla fighters and brutally assassinated honorable soldiers.
    Last edited by octobrev; 24-11-2016 at 16:24.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by octobrev View Post
    What business does the military have policing social norms in foreign nations? Is it acceptable for me to come into your house and kill you because I don't like the way you discipline your children?
    I tend to agree, we should just close our borders to them and let then do whatever they want to each other.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I tend to agree, we should just close our borders to them and let then do whatever they want to each other.
    but but but i have a better idea. lets invite all the people who hate us to come and be our next door neighbors.

    in all seriousness though. . . we need to mind our own business and get out of the middle east. it's really not our problem. Turkey and Russia and Saudi Arabia have much more right to police the middle east and control extremism than we do. . . it's right in their backyard... literally.

    The USA should not be the world police.

    on the flip side of that, if you come over here and mess with us directly, then we reserve the right to handle things militarily as we see fit.
    Last edited by brandonc204; 16-04-2017 at 19:38.

  14. #29
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    What is "Islamic extremism" anyway? Someone who follows Islam without exceptions?
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  15. #30
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    republican extremeism

    Quote Originally Posted by khronosschoty View Post
    What is "Islamic extremism" anyway? Someone who follows Islam without exceptions?
    All extremism is the same. Anybody who follows propaganda w/o using logic. Like the followers of Trump who parrot Fox Noise.
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    Bush 43 invaded Iraq w/o any exit strategy and caused the downfall of 5-6 middle east govs. We are surprised by the extremism in Europe that followed. Hell just kill all Muslims is the only answer.

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    Last edited by kendy; 18-04-2017 at 06:03. Reason: eat Poo

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