Do T/Ms need some love?

[tehboomer]

It seems to me that we're too weak....but I'd like the opinions of players more knowledgeable than me on this topic.

We have no way of retaliating attacks made against us outside of war, and I've been broken a handful of times by provinces 200+ acres smaller than me...which considering we are pure defense and T/W, that's kind of ridiculous....but again, I would like to know what the general consensus from players better than myself is.

So, do you feel that T/Ms need some love? Or am I just bad?

EDIT: Outside of hostilities, not necessarily war...obviously.

EDIT 2: There seems to be some confusion. I am NOT talking about any form of hostilities (not war/hostile/unfriendly). We have plenty of tools when at war.

[elixer]

They have to have some balance. You can't expect t/m to be unbreakable at all times. Otherwise there would be no fun in warring. T/m start out breakable in war, then your job is to make them unbreakable.

[elixer]

I know it's not exactly what you are looking for. But I'm on the go and not much time to type more

[tehboomer]

I don't expect T/Ms to be unbreakable all the time...but if we're running next to no offense, people smaller than us shouldn't be able to break us. Or is that unreasonable?

[brandonc204]

...

[chalsdk]

There is 3 ways of hitting someone..

With sticks and stones
with Magic stones
Or sneacky peaple.

IF one is not breable with sticks and stones, well, perhaps its time use the magic stones and dismotivate his plebs.. Or have you sneacky reduce their numbers..

[tehboomer]

There is 3 ways of hitting someone..

With sticks and stones
with Magic stones
Or sneacky peaple.

IF one is not breable with sticks and stones, well, perhaps its time use the magic stones and dismotivate his plebs.. Or have you sneacky reduce their numbers..

You can't do any significant damage with spells outside of hostilities, and the best you can do with thieves is lower their resources and take their peasants....not exactly an effective strategy. Meanwhile, they can take our land, kill our troops, massacre our thieves/wizards/peasants, or abduct our scientists.

[TommyB]

I don't expect T/Ms to be unbreakable all the time...but if we're running next to no offense, people smaller than us shouldn't be able to break us. Or is that unreasonable?

Yea, that's unreasonable. When I'm Orc/Undead and train a 80/20 ratio for offense/defense then I will be able to hit any T/M in my nw range, how do you expect to be able to prevent that?

Your own attackers might be able to double or even triple retal back, but then again maybe that is exactly what I want to get relations? The prov vs. prov perspective is misleading.

The only way to be unbreakable to the whole server is to have the biggest prov and have your kingdom actively engage (or CF) all potential threats.

[StratOcastle]

We have players who prevail without a CF environment that run t/ms. I'm not saying they're better or lucky, just that they've got the acres and honor.

That said, I encourage my kingdom to retal if t/ms are hit. I'm not monarch but I have served in organized kingdoms and understand what augmentations must occur to ape a CF environment.

To understand this, in reference to TommyB, I've approached this juxtaposition as a sloppy t/m or hybrid. I'll retaliate any attacker with a faery. The first challenge is to do it. I don't look at my province as some reward program, accumulating points in blah blah...I'm not encouraging everyone to run around suiciding, but I do it and I intend to triumph in 3 exchanges.

So what I am saying is kingdoms and players should be more imaginative. I'm a landmine. I'm the guy that does something unexpected that hurts. Or that's is how I approach retal. I never attack unprovoked unless ordered, but retal, well that's when I get to shine. Currently I'm playing an undead sage, to take those scientists and render the rest to novice if you cross that line. It's not anger, it's a love of challenge.

[Sheister]

I think TM's are a little underpowered, the problem is that if they get any stronger, attackers whine too much. So that is all there is to it. Sooner or later the game will buff attackers to the point that TM's will whine enough, then the dev's will go too far in making TM's stable and then the attackers will whine again... its one of the major utopia cycles.

[ryvrdrgn14]

This age as mostly gone like so:

1) Get massacred (anywhere from severe to minor). Always run high Guilds
2) Adjust spells (FB/Greeds when really low on WPA, steal runes) to just casting MS on easy targets.
3) Kidnap to full pop, max draft + Patriotism, retrain thieves.
4) Recover to decent WPA/TPA mid-war and business as usual.

Some varaitions where for pre-war:

1) Get landgrabbed
2) Landlust it all back
3) Toss some spells and NS to make it look like an attack with some troop loss
4) Repeat

This war I had to LL 200+ acres prewar to maintain size due to landgrabs.

[Uhm hoi]

You can't do any significant damage with spells outside of hostilities, and the best you can do with thieves is lower their resources and take their peasants....not exactly an effective strategy. Meanwhile, they can take our land, kill our troops, massacre our thieves/wizards/peasants, or abduct our scientists.

On top of putting a huge strain on economy with blanket riots, greed and possibly blizzard, and taking away resources directly with fg, lightning, stealing, NSing soldiers and stealing horses, here's some strong t/m tactics in wars:

Step 1: cast pitfalls, blizzards and explosions on target and bribe his generals
Step 2: cast nightmares repeatedly
Step 3: have attackers nightstrike the target (as the target has sh!t for tpa after nm's, you dont need much tpa to ns this one)
Step 4: everyone hit the target, including t/m's. you don't need much offense to hit a target with almost defense left
Tip: the off target attacks make this worth it. attackers can raze, massacre and bounce while still ensuring a steady amount of acres incoming

Step 1: fireball any excess peasants off of an attacker with mediocre offense
Step 2: keep up greed, meteors and chastity
Step 3: NS any excess soldiers
Step 4: check his peasants regularly, extra fireballs if necessary
Step 5: let him grow uncontrollably
Step 6: Have a nice landfarm to landlust from for anyone who gets chained or for t/m's needing to grow
Tip: Try this on an undead; they cant kidnap and you deal with them without having to worry about plague. For non undeads, apply some massacres so they won't kidnap.

Make unbreakables breakable with constant meteors.

Turn mystics/heretics useless using 1 rogue to greater arson watchtowers and 2 rogues to assassinate wizards/propaganda.

Tornado halfling rogues to mess with their thief dens and force more thief losses. If they hold stealth to rebuild td's, expose their thieves.


Plenty of mean things t/m's can do in wars. They don't need a buff imo, balance between t/m's and attackers is good atm.

[chalsdk]

well..

Some might argue that Mystics lost its legit reason to be in a org. kingdom, and most play without rogues as they are the broken pers and even more, worse then a generel hitter..

so yes, TM´s been weakned beyound reason..

but within reason, will Mr bishop buff some of them ?

Why will he break a 5 year tradition ?

[tehboomer]

Yea, that's unreasonable. When I'm Orc/Undead and train a 80/20 ratio for offense/defense then I will be able to hit any T/M in my nw range, how do you expect to be able to prevent that?

Your own attackers might be able to double or even triple retal back, but then again maybe that is exactly what I want to get relations? The prov vs. prov perspective is misleading.

The only way to be unbreakable to the whole server is to have the biggest prov and have your kingdom actively engage (or CF) all potential threats.

Fine. Then allow me to use my full host of tools on someone who breaks me. Because as it stands, there is pretty much nothing I can do in retaliation.

-Steal runes/gold/food? Big deal.
-Kidnap? What good does that do when I just lost a bunch of land and am hemorrhaging peasants.
-All combat spells at no hostilities are useless.
-Lastly, the only two races we can ambush without being a hybrid are UD/Orc, and due to the number of troops needed to break us...even then, it's not realistic.

If there were a window (say until the attacker's army gets home) where the broken T/M could retaliate with his full arsenal, then I wouldn't have any complaints. My problem lies with the fact that we can't defend ourselves, and have to rely on our KD.

In the end, unless we have access to all our spells, we can only really be a nuisance (again, OUTSIDE OF HOSTILITIES) and I don't see how that can be considered balanced anywhere outside of the very top echelon of KDs.

[chalsdk]

Fine. Then allow me to use my full host of tools on someone who breaks me. Because as it stands, there is pretty much nothing I can do in retaliation.

-Steal runes/gold/food? Big deal.
-Kidnap? What good does that do when I just lost a bunch of land and am hemorrhaging peasants.
-All combat spells at no hostilities are useless.
-Lastly, the only two races we can ambush without being a hybrid are UD/Orc, and due to the number of troops needed to break us...even then, it's not realistic.

If there were a window (say until the attacker's army gets home) where the broken T/M could retaliate with his full arsenal, then I wouldn't have any complaints. My problem lies with the fact that we can't defend ourselves, and have to rely on our KD.

In the end, unless we have access to all our spells, we can only really be a nuisance (again, OUTSIDE OF HOSTILITIES) and I don't see how that can be considered balanced anywhere outside of the very top echelon of KDs.

Not to be the shiny ****.. but..

Its very realitic to ambush anything for avian.. IT can be done!

Orc or the not living is just WAY more easy then others.

PF is quite usefull - always.
So is ET.
Or BG.
OR BT.

It be nice with more spells thougt.

Just of the top of my mind.. Posion water, dessent (reduce ME)..