Thieves and Mages what are you TPA and WPA

[jmiedema]

Faery Heretic. Early age I was 4 tpa and as much wpa as possible (put 17 scientists in channeling right away for wpa and rune production). Mid age 6 tpa and as much wpa as possible (4-5), Late age (using 20-30% homes in war and maxed housing sci), 6 raw tpa, 6 raw wpa, 20-22 epa ending around 20 mod tpa and wpa (with invis and mages fury up). If you go much higher than this you are risking opening yourself up to attacks, and if you go lower you will likely be op'd pretty easily from enemy elves and rogues.

Science I maxxed chanelling first, then crime, then housing, then military, then alchemy/tools, then food. If lots of time during a pump I would move around some scientists into alchemy, but once I hit profs i usually left them there.

[Kitzz]

Interesting Jmiedema

My sci went channeling>pop>tools>crime>military>food/alch.
Wondering why you ranked tools as low as alchemy/food.

E/M though.

Nvm, i think most heretics dont use TDs/WTs thats why BE not as important.

[Bo To]

Interesting Jmiedema

My sci went channeling>pop>tools>crime>military>food/alch.
Wondering why you ranked tools as low as alchemy/food.

E/M though.

Nvm, i think most heretics dont use TDs/WTs thats why BE not as important.

I'm also E/M and my sci went channeling -> pop -> crime -> military -> tools(currently I have 16 scientists in everything except tools - there I have none because the RNG goddess(must be goddess) doesn't like me).

Heretics should need TDs. The bonus tpa and the lower dmg on successful ops helps a lot. Since there aren't many rogues this age probably they don't need WTs.

[Kitzz]

My kd heretics are running 50-60% homes to achieve 9 tpa raw and 5-6 wpa raw for more dmg potential rather than TDs.

I think they only get TDs during war with LL/acre gains.

[jmiedema]

I guess it just depends what your housing sci is used for and what your raw tpa is at. 17 scientists for both categories. If I put the full 10% of population that I get from housing sci as thieves that is +2.5 raw tpa with only invis/TD's to modify it. If I put those 17 scientists into crime (at start of age I was at 4 raw tpa) then crime gives me +5 tpa because of 125% tpa sci (also modified by invis and td's ).

Dont forget Homes aren't affected by housing sci, only honour , so it is basically early age just a bonus 2.5 ppa. Also, this isn't mentioning that crime sci doesn't inflate your Networth whereas adding population does, this is a good thing if you are trying to bank and be out of networth range, but bad if you want to stay in a close NW with their core to op most optimally.

Obviously if you were pumping/econ mode you would put them in alchemy or housing first, then switch them later to crime. Honestly until I was at around 40-45 scientists I wasn't even keeping any profs, I would rotate them around to fit my need. I would put 34 scientists into channeling to NM, then switch them all to crime to NS, then put them back into channeling for wpa defense (so many dam elves this age) and for rune production at tick.

Also as a Heretic this age (our kingdom ran fae/he as a/t/m so we had to have stables and hospitals. But we still ran 10% TD's, enough to offset successful op thief losses (particularly for ops like stealing horses and riots where you need to send a lot of thieves) and to help have a decent mtpa. Our heretics weren't meant to do heavy offensive op'ing against T/M cores though, but to obliterate enemy attackers and gain land becoming UB land grabbers. This is also why I ranked military sci higher than tools, because we used military for offense and for defense, so military sci gave double benefit. The less raw offense i need to send, the more leets i get to keep on defense, also boosted by military sci, so 10% military sci is very very nice for fae/he "faettacker"

[Bo To]

Dont forget Homes aren't affected by housing sci, only honour

False. Homes are affected by both sci and honor bonus. They aren't affected by racial bonus.

With 30%+ homes your NW is going too high.

[jmiedema]

Fair enough, so with 50% homes(more than most would run), that would make housing sci give 3 extra TPA (instead of 2.5) that you have to pay gc to train, whereas crime is still an extra 5 tpa without having to train anything.

That is the point i was making.

[Pyobe]

Faery Heretic. Early age I was 4 tpa and as much wpa as possible (put 17 scientists in channeling right away for wpa and rune production). Mid age 6 tpa and as much wpa as possible (4-5), Late age (using 20-30% homes in war and maxed housing sci), 6 raw tpa, 6 raw wpa, 20-22 epa ending around 20 mod tpa and wpa (with invis and mages fury up). If you go much higher than this you are risking opening yourself up to attacks, and if you go lower you will likely be op'd pretty easily from enemy elves and rogues.

Science I maxxed chanelling first, then crime, then housing, then military, then alchemy/tools, then food. If lots of time during a pump I would move around some scientists into alchemy, but once I hit profs i usually left them there.

Forgive my total noobness (my first full age), how are you running such high numbers? What's your BE? With 30% homes, max pop sci and 10% tools (not all profs yet) if I draft further than 65% with 6rtpa and 7rwpa my BE starts to tank. I've got 15epa now.

What other factors should I be looking for to hit your numbers?

[jmiedema]

Forgive my total noobness (my first full age), how are you running such high numbers? What's your BE? With 30% homes, max pop sci and 10% tools (not all profs yet) if I draft further than 65% with 6rtpa and 7rwpa my BE starts to tank. I've got 15epa now. Should yield around 4ppa (Guestimating) that you can put into thieves/wizzies/leets.

What other factors should I be looking for to hit your numbers?

In war peasants are essentially useless early on. It is substanially more important to creat T/M dominance and/or Unbreakable provinces. So basically the way to get those numbers (on top of honour and sci) is to do a deep homes pump. For war you will probably only keep 20-30 homes, but basically before you start drafting for war, you bring in extra homes, like having say 60%. Then you have all this inflated population, and you draft based on that inflated population. Now when you are done drafting and bringing in your war build, you remove the excess homes that arent part of your war build (calculate it to make sure that your total population isn't more than 115% of your max population. Ideally be as close to the 115% mark as possible.


"But Wait! You will have no peasants after they all desert!"

Desertions take time, and are a % of your current peasants. As a T/M you will probably be helping with dragon slaying and things that will help regulate your peasant level. Worst case is that you get some soldier aid or release a few troops at a time to release to pezzies so you don't die.

"But how will I pay my wages?"

Hopefully you will be going into the war with some decent gc. If you do run out of gc you can run lower wages and still net a better overall defense with the added elites that you drafted. Also, most t/m's aren't required to attack, so paying wages is usually not a requirement anyway.

If your activity isn't great you won't want to deep draft this hard, because it takes some managing of your peasants, but it is definitely a way to increase your provinces numbers.

As an attacker it is useful too, because they don't want high peasants anyway, because having high peasants just makes you release more troops if/when you get deep chained (the reason Town Watch is so useful for attackers).

[Pyobe]

Gotcha, that makes sense. My mates gave me the basics but wanted me to figure things out for myself. I've learned some hard lessons by fire :) They did say you can get away with just about anything in the "ghetto" lol. Thanks for raising the bar!

[Burzum]

Im Dwarf/Heretic. Have about 6,5 raw TPA/WPA and 170 DPA with 95% BE at start of war.

[lightnemesis]

Im Dwarf/Heretic. Have about 6,5 raw TPA/WPA and 170 DPA with 95% BE at start of war.

Hey fellow dwarf/heretic :) Those are impressive numbers. I'm wondering how much % homes and forts you are running..

[joeblogs]

Heretic only needs enough WPA to NM, and enough TPA to be defensive / run NS.
I went with the whole "more is better" TPA philosophy on my heretic early age and quickly realised that I was a nice target for a massacre.

So I guess if you plan on ATM for heretic a floating WPA of 5+ is best to grow with. TPA 5-6 depending on the enemy - 7+ if you're UB and want to be able to OP mystics or other ticks.

Pure TM, forget it - that's dead.

Next age, the age of super rogues again (I postulate) - probably similar.

[s0830887]

Jmie, it's worth me to the newer guys that you are also in one of the very few KDs in the game that are allowed the time to sit and stack gc on low draft and then deep, deep pump. Only 5% of the server can do that, so most guys will have to be a lot more realistic with their targets.

OP - my Elf/Heretics atm are hitting 7rtpa, 5rwpa, 8dspa, 9epa. To reach that you really have to be on about 50% homes, max pop sci, and decent honour. Those numbers can go higher depending on how many homes you run, but I haven't quite figured out the perfect way to do that this age as I've been having to compromise constantly on my homes for extra guilds (due to massacres, growth, extended normal stance/inflexibility of fort, etc)

[NoA]

Elf / Heretic: 6.5 rTpa (24.33 mTpa), 6.5 rWpa (32.5 mWpa), 10 dspa, 6 epa, 4.5 ppa