Vote Recount (Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan)

[handofthrawn]

So let me ask a question of the Democrats in the room. If illegal immigrants are not A. Working B. On welfare C. Going to school for free. What are the 12 million illegal immigrants doing here? I can tell you, they are stealing jobs. Yes, they are eating up welfare and yes they get schooling plus medical for free. Also yes they are voting in some states like California that have extremely slack rules when it comes to voting. But hey the rich get cheap labor, while us working whites and blacks get our jobs stolen from us. Hey its cool we have welfare right, oh wait they keep running out of money. But it's ok at least illegal immigrants are taken care of right. ;)

[Elldallan]

So let me ask a question of the Democrats in the room. If illegal immigrants are not A. Working B. On welfare C. Going to school for free. What are the 12 million illegal immigrants doing here? I can tell you, they are stealing jobs. Yes, they are eating up welfare and yes they get schooling plus medical for free. Also yes they are voting in some states like California that have extremely slack rules when it comes to voting. But hey the rich get cheap labor, while us working whites and blacks get our jobs stolen from us. Hey its cool we have welfare right, oh wait they keep running out of money. But it's ok at least illegal immigrants are taken care of right. ;)

Exactly what jobs are they "stealing"?
Because if the jobs they are "stealing" are jobs that pay so horribly and require such long working hours that barely any legal US citizen would take them then that's not a job that's stolen from anybody because nobody would take that job.

And is there any actual evidence that there has been any sort of statistically relevant vote-rigging anywhere? Credible sources please, ie independent peer reviewed papers or respected media outlets! ie not the sort of bull**** you can find off of breitbart or RT!

[handofthrawn]

Exactly what jobs are they "stealing"?
Because if the jobs they are "stealing" are jobs that pay so horribly and require such long working hours that barely any legal US citizen would take them then that's not a job that's stolen from anybody because nobody would take that job.

And is there any actual evidence that there has been any sort of statistically relevant vote-rigging anywhere? Credible sources please, ie independent peer reviewed papers or respected media outlets! ie not the sort of bull**** you can find off of breitbart or RT!

Yes if you listen to elites and city people no one wants farming jobs. Farming communities have been hit hard by the influx of illegal immigrants. I am sure though msnbc or CNN will say differently. Also don't forget construction, plumbing and yard work. Yes your right they are low paying professions thanks to illegals driving down the wages. It's like if they let any doctors practice in America. It would drive medical costs into the ground. You would have a doctor on every corner.

[Swirvin'Birds]

Yes if you listen to elites and city people no one wants farming jobs. Farming communities have been hit hard by the influx of illegal immigrants. I am sure though msnbc or CNN will say differently. Also don't forget construction, plumbing and yard work. Yes your right they are low paying professions thanks to illegals driving down the wages. It's like if they let any doctors practice in America. It would drive medical costs into the ground. You would have a doctor on every corner.

Totally agree with you on that. But you need to go after the guys doing the hiring of illegals. I mean REALLY crack down on these guys. In landscape and construction many employers even pay legals under the table. Make the punnishment harsh enough to make it not worth the risk.The jobs they get through these guys is what keeps them coming back. Your fighting a losing battle going after the illegals themselves as they will just keep coming.
Of course the downside is the increased costs of labor will be passed on to us in the price tag.

[greendragon2000]

Totally agree with you on that. But you need to go after the guys doing the hiring of illegals. I mean REALLY crack down on these guys. In landscape and construction many employers even pay legals under the table. Make the punnishment harsh enough to make it not worth the risk.The jobs they get through these guys is what keeps them coming back. Your fighting a losing battle going after the illegals themselves as they will just keep coming.
Of course the downside is the increased costs of labor will be passed on to us in the price tag.

Increase in cost of labor being passed down is a moot point. If more legal persons are hired (permit carrying immigrants or citizens both) then pay will increase across the board. Wage stagnation will end. We can then afford an increase in items. I would much rather pay 15.00 extra for a phone knowing is was made here in the USA...

[Swirvin'Birds]

Increase in cost of labor being passed down is a moot point. If more legal persons are hired (permit carrying immigrants or citizens both) then pay will increase across the board. Wage stagnation will end. We can then afford an increase in items. I would much rather pay 15.00 extra for a phone knowing is was made here in the USA...

My guess is $15 would be a huge under estimate. Wage stagnation isn't just in jobs sectors illegals work in... I agree it's a part, but a small part. Large monolithic corporations who do not hire illegals are the mass purveyor. You know, the guys getting the huge Trump tax break.

[Chanain]

Yes your right they are low paying professions thanks to illegals driving down the wages.

So what you're saying is that you don't like having such a competitive labour market? Can't compete? Most American capitalists would suggest that the availability of cheap labour stimulates business and economic growth - basically, I can afford to produce more goods, more affordably for the consumer, because unskilled labour is cheap. This is the same logic underlying the resistance to increases in the minimum wage.

If you're going to tell me that you support a higher minimum wage, and have an issue with immigration because of the labour glut that would generate, that might put us into the position of being able to have a meaningful conversation about the economic impact of illegal immigration. But I have a feeling that you would oppose a $15/hour minimum wage, too.

It's like if they let any doctors practice in America. It would drive medical costs into the ground. You would have a doctor on every corner.

Not the same thing at all, really.

The ones I'd trust to cut me open would still be expensive. Yeah, there might be a guy on the corner, with a medical degree from the Kandahar Campus of the P.T. Barnum School of Leeches and Miracle Cures, willing to cut out my gallbladder for $20, but I'm going to be asking questions like "What med school did you go to?" and "Are you insured?" - and satisfactory answers to those questions would mean I'd have to pay the 'expensive' doctors.

ETA: Swirvin, you're right about $15 being a huge underestimate. I looked at the numbers on this a while back when Trump first started talking about forcing Apple to make their phones here. While there are some figures hard to anticipate, a conservative estimate of the cost difference would still be in the hundreds of dollars. So you're getting $500 of your $600 phone subsidized by your carrier on contract right now; suddenly the retail cost shoots up to $800, and you're paying $300 out of your pocket instead of $100. (Some analyses suggest that the cost of an iPhone would shoot up to about $2000 dollars.)

[handofthrawn]

Simply put employees are the number one cost of any business. Wages are just a part of it honestly. Taxes, insurance, workers comp, paid sick leave, unemployment, safety equipment, safe work environment, retirement plans and many other cost that go into having legal employees. Nice thing about illegal employees you don't have any of those things and can pay them next to nothing.

[Chanain]

Simply put employees are the number one cost of any business. Wages are just a part of it honestly. Taxes, insurance, workers comp, paid sick leave, unemployment, safety equipment, safe work environment, retirement plans and many other cost that go into having legal employees. Nice thing about illegal employees you don't have any of those things and can pay them next to nothing.

Unemployment and workers comp (which *is* insurance), you're right.

The rest, not so much. I don't know of any states that legally mandate the payment of paid sick leave or retirement plans, and unskilled low-wage workers are unlikely to get such things, legal or otherwise. Hiring illegals doesn't get you off the hook for other workplace safety obligations (which LOTS of employers, even those who hire legal workers, frequently ignore). As for taxes, that actually goes the other way. Tax remittances come out of the employee's part of the pay cheque (though folks making that kind of money typically don't have to pay much tax anyways), and more importantly legitimate payroll expenses are tax deductible. If you're paying employees under the table, you lose the ability to claim that expense as a deduction, and end up on the hook to the IRS for *more* tax.

When you're looking at hiring an employee, the VAST majority of the costs you're looking at are (a) wages, (b) contractual (and not statutorily required) benefit packages, and (c) other incidental costs to having another body in the workforce - like providing workspace and equipment, HR and payroll management costs, etc. Paying a couple percent of wages in unemployment insurance is a drop in the bucket.

Problems associated with certain businesses ignoring employment regulations - safety violations, tax evasion, hours of work and vacation obligations, and even wage violations (failing to pay wages owed on time, refusing to pay overtime, etc.) - are large-scale problems, going FAR beyond issues of 'hiring illegals', and have a much more damaging impact on the labour market than the actual hiring of illegals by some businesses.

I live in Canada, where we don't have a particularly big problem with illegal immigration...but it exists. My partner works in an industry with a large immigrant demographic, and for several years operated her own business. Many of her competitors employed people with questionable immigration status (several of them may have been working illegally; others probably fudged the documents necessary to get a work visa), but THAT wasn't what made it difficult for her to compete. Her difficulty in competing is that most of her competitors engaged in tax evasion, taking cash payments under the table to avoid having to collect and remit the VAT, thus enabling them to undercut her on price.

[greendragon2000]

Exactly what jobs are they "stealing"?
Because if the jobs they are "stealing" are jobs that pay so horribly and require such long working hours that barely any legal US citizen would take them then that's not a job that's stolen from anybody because nobody would take that job.

And is there any actual evidence that there has been any sort of statistically relevant vote-rigging anywhere? Credible sources please, ie independent peer reviewed papers or respected media outlets! ie not the sort of bull**** you can find off of breitbart or RT!

Starting salary at the turkey plant across the street (not farm, actual plant where they prepare them for sale) is 15.00 hr