Wave goodbye to waving

[StratOcastle]

I just read the first anri post which I guess was serious
To play in a top kd you need to be available pretty well 24/7. I'd say most players in this game have been part of it for 10 years or more.. a lot of players started when thy were in high school. Now lots of the player base has full time jobs or more important issues than idling in Irc for hours to retaliate a wave. Also you are losing pretty much all freedom of choice in a top kd. Want to try a new race combo out for fun? Not in a top kd. Hell you aren't going to be able to pick your build most likely. I'll keep this short but I have better things to do than wait around on irc at 4am on a work night for a target chosen for me running a prov that I run but have 0 freedom to change. I know I sound like I'm being a little extreme but it isn't far from the truth. I've played top kd and ghetto and lots of variety. The real fun and strategy for a part time player is in a lower war tier. I get the same enjoyment winning a ghetto war than winning a top war.. the biggest difference is I can carry my day perfectly fine while playing in the ghetto kd. Thinking that Warring is more fun in a top kd is a joke.. it's misleading and completely false. Not sure how setting alarms for a week in the middle of the night and basically following orders to do every little thing in your province is fun. I guess I don't have a nw crown to show my family and friends though. Sad me.

This is a pretty fair assessment. I'm(or have been) at the top kingdom activity level but I enjoy my freedom in game. I like to go up top once in a while just to see how my game is holding up, but I'm not a fan of the micromanagement. It depends on the player.

There are things in top navigating I've seen that I knew could be done better, but it's on a personal basis. Not all players are bolted together the same way. Following the strat is understandably important and it goes for competetive warring as well. There's no shock in the depth of the game for me, it's just a matter of seeing something in execution.

The lower tier offers not just freedom but the antiquated intel and basic communication I enjoy. I love the game bare bones and my attention is crystalized sans bots and chat tinkering. I've been told many times you can't compete without these tools and you can't change minds about this kind of thing.

Culturally I come from D&D and many other games where teamwork development between players is paramount. This is why I present The Virtual Kingdom in an odd diversified strat. The concept of divisions is to enhance the feel and pace of the team. For my money, it is this simple thing that eludes many kingdoms. They have capitulation but not a team driven effort. It's a shame because the potential is there.

[s0830887]

The arguments for staying at 22 are all fine. Yes, it's easier to find wars. Yes, it's easier to have 22 good players than 25 good players. Yes, player turnover means you are constantly recruiting, and it is harder/riskier to fill 25 provs than 22 provs. Yes, 22 man is more relaxed/sociable for part time players. All of those statements are fine. But you're not disproving what Anri is saying when he is pointing out that the biggest KDs (Emeriti, CR, Div, FS etc) are the best on the server. Beating those KDs is harder than beating any 22 man KD in the game. There is no argument to be made there. Intentionally staying at a smaller size is done to find easier wars and take the path of least resistance. There is no argument to be made there.

There could be an argument to be made saying 'warring constantly all age like warring-tier does, with limited prep time between wars, compared to top KDs CFing and stocking gc for war prep, provides a different, maybe even situationally more challenging game in certain ways' - but that still doesn't disprove that the top KDs are the best. You could have an entire age to prep, and Emeriti could come out of b2b2b2b2b2b wars for all it matters, and they would still kick the **** out of your (and my) KD.

You get KDs like mine, like Firestorm, say, like Seagulls, like WarCry etc, who all jump up the WW chart rankings, and that's fine, that's the challenge we are hunting. But let's not pretend that any of our KDs hold a flame to any of the top growth KDs. Each KD chooses how and why they play the game, and the vast majority of us are playing casually and challenging for whatever scraps we can challenge for, which is totally fine, because we buy into that and that's where our commitment level lends itself to. But we all know that the big dogs are the big dogs because they're absolutely quality KDs, and they're better than we are.

[Zauper]

I think the issue with intentionally staying at 22 in the eyes of folks like anri is that you are choosing to handicap your kingdom. And if you're doing it for the reason you say (to get more wars), that's okay. maybe okay minus, let's say.

However, a lot of people say that but really they're doing it to get easier wars. Because a kingdom at 22 is much more likely to be disorganized, maybe newly thrown together (like the kd i'm in atm -- apparently i have a upoopu account? Not even sure what that means). Those are much easier wars than kingdoms at 24 or 25. There might be an issue with focus on volume rather than focus on quality.

There should be room for kingdoms with 25 players that don't want to be hyper competitive and login all the time. I'm not sure whether it's that there are changes necessary to support that (e.g. shifts that can support 1 login/day instead of 2) or something else -- incentivizing going to 25 somehow.

To the post above me; that's the issue with the WW chart to some extent. A war between two kds on 50m NW is probably actually more interesting (and harder to win, and more impactful) than a war between two 20 prov kds on 5M NW in year 10 that every other kingdom on the server can raze out. Yet the second scenario is more likely to be the war deciding the ww crown.

[Palem]

I just wanted to pop in and say

1. 22 province kingdoms are unable to compete with 25 province kingdoms, in any regard. Being a 22 province kingdom means you are a ghetto, at least until you can actually beat a good kingdom and prove that you aren't.

2. Having 25 provinces means you have 25 provinces. It does not mean you aren't a ghetto.

3. There's no shame in being a ghetto. You don't take the game quite as seriously and that's fine, but don't mistake success at a lower competition level as meaning you're just as good as the top kingdoms. You're allowed to be the best smash brothers player in your town and still say you're not all that great at the game.

[JerseyJoe]

When I say easier to find wars I mean in general. Not as in easier to find easy to win wars. There just aren't as many 25 man kds to war. And saying a 23 man kd can't beat a 25 man kd isn't necessarily true either (22 would definitely be pushing it though even if all other factors are equal) There's a lot of factors that go into a war and the amount of provs isn't the only one. As far as competing with growth kds on a warring level, why would we? Let the growth guys battle each other for all I care, because we just want war :)

[Agerjag]

First off id say that if my kingdom were to war Emeriti at equal sizes I do think they would win. They have the activity which is more important then most things(and lets be honest they are no slouches as for strategy, tactics and coordiantion). As for being better then everyone else Im not so sure. We are all playing this game with different levels of constraints and advantages. Time spent on anything is usually valuable but more so in a game like this then any other. You could for example play half as much as another starcraft player and still be better. But thats not so much the case here. If you cant be on when getting hit for example you lose efficiency. There could be better kingdoms then Emeriti in terms of sheer war strategy (and I would consider that the best kingdom, it may be Emeriti for that matter but its hard to tell). This game was made originally as a social experiment. In some sense you could say the winner of this game is the one having the best time (Strato may be in the running for that for example). If the big kingdoms were to come play with everyone else we may find there is a different order to the "best" kingdoms.

There are a few other problems though. That this game rewards waking up in the middle of the night (which no other game or sport I can think of really does) makes these kings of things difficult as that is really against our nature as humans. There are ways to mitigate this a bit by planning waves and adding/subtracting hours, but that is inefficient compared to lets say being available 24/7. In other web games like travian for example two people play the same account often so that the account is never unwatched. In some sense its like boxing if you had two opponents. Unfair at its core. I think that the best kingdom is really the one that can play this game reasonably and has the best strategies. Do I think that is me right now? No. But its what Im striving for.

To go with palems example its not about being the best in your town its more like being the best one handed player. Your still the best at what you do that others have advantages you do not doesn't change that (like time). We are all competing on the same stage really but with very different ideas on what constitutes winning and what the goals are. If all players went for growth that would be one thing or even if we had a large enough player base that really supported vastly different goals that would be another. There are only a few kingdoms even competing for growth crown compared to the myriad competing for war crown. If anything its less competition. I think it would be really cool for them to come down even for an age and see how they fare, they may dominate and show that they really can compete with the best or they will stay growth kingdoms and congratulate themselves every age on beating 5 other kingdoms they were actually competing against.

In the end though I think that everyone should play how they want. Play to have the most fun. Though I think it would be really rad to see all the growth kingdoms shake things up in the warring tier, if they would rather keep playing the growth game thats fine too. Do I wish utopia had a competitive tournament style for warring, yes, yes I do.

[Band of Horses]

22 prov kingdoms are generally playing the game on easy. Then there are warring tier kingdoms with 25 provs, maybe they are playing on medium but that's a stretch. Both are still ghettos in comparison to the top growth kds that play on hard mode. Easier to find wars is a bs excuse, until you are the largest kingdom in the game you can always find a war you just have to be willing to fight up. Trust me CR would gladly take a fight right now so long as they can get ww bonus. You might need to fight up 10%, maybe more. Don't take offense to being a ghetto when you're playing the game at a lower skill level, as evident just by growth vs warring win rate, and the fact that you guys are even admitting the time requirements in growth are far greater.

It is okay to play this game to have fun, it is okay to play in a ghetto, the difference between your kd and what you consider ghettos is the same as the difference between top kds and yours, to the top all below their tier are ghetto.

[Band of Horses]

@Agerjag

The top kds have all taken ages off and beat the ever living crap out of the warring tier. This is with less activity and lax attitude. Hell even Simians were able to do it (Member when Anry was going to win honor crown and Binbin land dropped down and unlimited waved them to take crown lolololol.) The best warring kds run from top kds every time they do this, and they are fighting with one arm tied behind their back (Some of their best players taking a break, the rest not giving a chit, chat filled with trolls on munk, allowing nick to play.)

[Madchess]

I don't get the discussion terms at all here, if you are 25 then you are obliously gooing to have an advantage for growing over a 22 province kd, and as a 22 province kingdom you have an easier time finding a war as there is only arround 25-30 kd's who chose to and manage to stay 25 provinces for an entire age. Personly my dream senario would be to have 22 provinces staying from last age + returning former kd fellors to bring us to 25 provinces, then no one would be able to argue wether we should be 22 or 25 but at the moment we get a few newcomers every age and almost always lose some players until we get 22 people to play with somewhat into the age, gooing 25 is not even an option then, not everyone have strong connections, and not everyone want to enlist random people recruited without proper knowledge of, if they can be counted on or not in tough situations.

I'd like to add to this discussion that knowing your limitations and strengths, and using your players/resurces to the maximum effect requires more skill than actually having more players/resurces, even if having more makes you crown.

[Anri]

The arguments for staying at 22 are all fine. Yes, it's easier to find wars. Yes, it's easier to have 22 good players than 25 good players. Yes, player turnover means you are constantly recruiting, and it is harder/riskier to fill 25 provs than 22 provs. Yes, 22 man is more relaxed/sociable for part time players. All of those statements are fine. But you're not disproving what Anri is saying when he is pointing out that the biggest KDs (Emeriti, CR, Div, FS etc) are the best on the server. Beating those KDs is harder than beating any 22 man KD in the game. There is no argument to be made there. Intentionally staying at a smaller size is done to find easier wars and take the path of least resistance. There is no argument to be made there.

There could be an argument to be made saying 'warring constantly all age like warring-tier does, with limited prep time between wars, compared to top KDs CFing and stocking gc for war prep, provides a different, maybe even situationally more challenging game in certain ways' - but that still doesn't disprove that the top KDs are the best. You could have an entire age to prep, and Emeriti could come out of b2b2b2b2b2b wars for all it matters, and they would still kick the **** out of your (and my) KD.

You get KDs like mine, like Firestorm, say, like Seagulls, like WarCry etc, who all jump up the WW chart rankings, and that's fine, that's the challenge we are hunting. But let's not pretend that any of our KDs hold a flame to any of the top growth KDs. Each KD chooses how and why they play the game, and the vast majority of us are playing casually and challenging for whatever scraps we can challenge for, which is totally fine, because we buy into that and that's where our commitment level lends itself to. But we all know that the big dogs are the big dogs because they're absolutely quality KDs, and they're better than we are.

I wrote a long post, but yours was better so i deleted mine before posting it.

[Meep]

Yes, 22 man kds are ghettos, unwilling to fight the best kds on the server. I don't care what charts you placed, you are warring a tier of likely minded with no ambition to be great, you are just like any other weak minded ghetto, you don't aspire to be among the best, you don't aspire for anything but to fight other ghettos in hope to grow honor and maybe get some stupid rank position on a WW chart. That WW chart have been BS from the start, its pure nonsense.

Until you random out of your hostile into the wrong 22 prov ghetto and they retal with a wave, then double while you're CF'd and beat you in war ;);););););););)

[Meep]

22 prov kingdoms are generally playing the game on easy. Then there are warring tier kingdoms with 25 provs, maybe they are playing on medium but that's a stretch. Both are still ghettos in comparison to the top growth kds that play on hard mode. Easier to find wars is a bs excuse, until you are the largest kingdom in the game you can always find a war you just have to be willing to fight up. Trust me CR would gladly take a fight right now so long as they can get ww bonus. You might need to fight up 10%, maybe more. Don't take offense to being a ghetto when you're playing the game at a lower skill level, as evident just by growth vs warring win rate, and the fact that you guys are even admitting the time requirements in growth are far greater.

It is okay to play this game to have fun, it is okay to play in a ghetto, the difference between your kd and what you consider ghettos is the same as the difference between top kds and yours, to the top all below their tier are ghetto.

I preferred 20v20 prov warring to 25v25 prov warring because the dynamics of attacking and number of generals you can throw at things was different.

[Meep]

@Agerjag

The top kds have all taken ages off and beat the ever living crap out of the warring tier. This is with less activity and lax attitude. Hell even Simians were able to do it (Member when Anry was going to win honor crown and Binbin land dropped down and unlimited waved them to take crown lolololol.) The best warring kds run from top kds every time they do this, and they are fighting with one arm tied behind their back (Some of their best players taking a break, the rest not giving a chit, chat filled with trolls on munk, allowing nick to play.)

I remember when CR took the age off last age, had 15 different race/pers combos in the KD, and had people showing up a day into war with no idea they were at war, and still rolled over everyone they fought, including rolling over TBB so hard Bart had to feed them 300m gold to try and throw round 2.

[Lestat]

Didn't Spartans just lose orrrr?

[trekdrop]

Anri has a point, but it is not reasonable to expect all kingdoms to play to be number one. You can compare it to real life. A select few strive to be the richest person in the world, the best race car driver in the world, the best chess player in the world etc. The majority will be content with being “decent”.

You can compare the tiers in Utopia somewhat with soccer. The ghetto’s are just a bunch of friends kicking a ball on a local grassfield, the warring tier KD’s are the amateur or semi-professional clubs that can be very fanatic and the top growth KD’s are like the Champions League club.

There is also is not much incentive to be “the best in Utopia”, other than alpha male stirrings. People that have the skill and the time to build up a contending superkingdom will have a better eV playing another e-sport where there are actual cash prizes involved.

In the end, for many, the drama and high-level politics involved is not worth it and you can still get your game on at one tier lower, hence the popularity of the warring tier as opposed to the growth tier.