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Thread: Orc attacker strat some feedback please

  1. #1

    Orc attacker strat some feedback please

    I haven't played for a few years actually ganna join back this age so let me now if this strat can work or I am making some huge mistakes and ganna get slaughter by mages/thiefs on wars thank you.

    ganna skip the boring pumping and other boring stages of the strat I wanna know some feed back on my war strat.

    War Build.
    1. Homes: (15%)
    2. Farms: (8%) - Is it enough for for 28.5 Pop per acer?
    3. Banks: (6%)
    4. Training Grounds: 150 (15%)
    5. Forts: (10%)
    6. Hospitals: (10%)
    7. Guilds: (12%)
    8. Towers: (7%)
    9. Watchtowers: 150 (15%)
    10. Dungeons: 20 (2%)

    This will get me on over 28.5 peasnts if I hold house sience on 112 bpa
    67% Draft rate
    7 epa = 56 raw opa (75-78 moded)
    10 sdpa = 60[72 w/elites] raw dpa (68[82 w/elite] moded) is it enough?
    2 TPA and 1 WPA = Will I'll get slaughter? WT or TD?
    8.5 Peasents with the 15% house will get 87% Building effeincey with 112 bpa in tools.

    Since I am kindav busy with studys and work I figured to aim for 1 attack per day and not two.
    So I skipped Raxes and because honor is useless for me ganna attack under annomity so cannot be ambush and harder to be retailed.

    Tough not sure about the class yes I figured as a war hero I could inflict higher damage and with the 30% gains bonus make a fiar grabs on conquests attacks as well. plus will assist me on my intel ops since I am low on tpa and wpa.

    Economic
    Tough I am not sure how affective increase wages are, assuming I'll do pay 200% wages.

    (17*0.5*0.5)*2= -8.5gc pa
    (8.5*2+1.035+0.2)*1.09*1.049= +20.85 gc pa
    +12.35 gc pa [Will it be able to support my growing kindom after been pumped first of course]

    Sience

    19.8% Income (135 ppa)
    9% Building Effectiveness (112 ppa)
    9% Population Limits (112 ppa)
    51% Food Production (100 ppa)
    11.2% Gains in Combat (112, ppa)
    36.1% Thievery Effectiveness (50 ppa)
    30.1% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production (50 ppa)
    Total 671 bpa on 50%-30% sience in each.

    Is this a realistic sienc stratgey? am I aiming to high?

    Peace Strat
    1. Homes: (15%)
    2. Farms: (8%)
    3. Banks: (6%)
    4. Forts: (10%)
    5. Guilds: (12%)
    6. Towers: (7%)
    7. Schools: (40%)
    9. Dungeons: (2%)

    Baiscly ment to reform and over praper sience for the coming war.
    Still ganna send attacks once a day, maybe conquests if its even possible now out of war. not nesserly land grab attack pharps sience and plunder on rich provinces.
    Rebuilding army W/O armours so let me know how dumb it is.

    I hope I haven't forgot anything and cant wait for some feed backs on how to make it better guys.

  2. #2
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    1. I think this is the wrong forum, probably should go under strategy.

    2. I'm not a numbers guys and I don't normally play full attacker. Normally a tm or hybrid. But I'll share what I do know to help.

    3. Offense. Yours needs to be much higher. Draft to 75. Aim for at least 100-120 raw opa. Should be easy at that draft F your be for now. As you grow and get pezzies in war it'll balance itself out.

    4. Forget forts. That land would be better spent on rax or gs depending on your kd strat and where you're at in war (rax would be better for example if you're chained; gs if you're fat and think you're about to be chained)

    5. In my kd (which is a war kd) there is no real "peace time" except Eowcf. Try to do as much of you're training then as possible because oow you should be hitting. Either plunders abducts or for land depending on what you need more. If you run the draft rate I suggest, you should be able to hold out till fort and by mixing you attack you can retrain losses.

    6. Your offense should your biggest defense.

    7. There's no more books. Read up in forums on the new sci system.

    8. Honor is not useless. And can make quite a difference later in age. Especially as a war hero

    9. Don't go Orc war hero. Go Tac then you can do forts instead of rax and get clear sight or warrior for extra off and an extra gens but war hero just isn't the best combo for an Orc I would say.

    Hope that helps. And of course most of my points are open to debate, just putting out what I've seen work and works for me.
    Monarch Bad JuJu age 68

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  3. #3
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    Farms are fine if you cast FL but I'd build surplus.

    New science doesn't use books, but scientists. Essentially you can navigate to the numbers you want but it takes time just like old science.

    In your peace strat you can toy with those schools since you're orc and have nice gains. Schools act like libraries now but are called universities.
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  4. #4
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    libraries in their true form no longer exist. The two sci building either helps you spawn scientist faster or protect your scientist, but no building will increase your science effect. Rip libraries, how I miss you.
    Monarch Bad JuJu age 68

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  5. #5
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    No need to marry a 'build' so much when your kingdom's situation and your own province's situation change day to day. That's a half decent guideline for starters besides that it's missing some critical attacking buildings (rax, stables) and is a bit low on hospitals for my liking. The forts are probably useless given that you're an orc. You want offense.

    You'll still ultimately want to build for your opponents in war and for whatever your particular use is oow. At some point it never hurts to get guilds and pump wpa if you have some spare time. The same goes for arms/banks to get army or for labs to get scientists.

    Same thinking goes for war. Like, you aren't gonna want tons of watchtowers if the other kingdom has ****ty thieves. If you're fighting tons of orcs then guardstations might not be terrible. It all depends.

  6. #6
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    Forts will save more pop than TG will up to a point. You should have more forts than TGs as an orc. like 10% TG and 15% Fort, or even better 8% TG and 17% fort. If someone wants to do the numbers, it should pan out.

  7. #7
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    First look at the new science in the wiki (science cap numbers are wrong but u'll understand the concept). Thus you're actual numbers are low across the board for this ages' science so tweak "initial" science to hit your caps as needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackadam View Post
    This will get me on over 28.5 peasnts if I hold house sience on 112 bpa
    67% Draft rate
    7 epa = 56 raw opa (75-78 moded)
    10 sdpa = 60[72 w/elites] raw dpa (68[82 w/elite] moded) is it enough?
    2 TPA and 1 WPA = Will I'll get slaughter? WT or TD?
    8.5 Peasents with the 15% house will get 87% Building effeincey with 112 bpa in tools.
    u'll get slaughtered running this. Almost always aim for a higher draft, typically you want to end on between 4-6 peasants/acre. If we go right on average at 5 ppa your looking at
    12 epa
    8 dspec/acre
    1.5 tpa
    2 wpa
    5 ppa


    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyJoe View Post
    5. In my kd (which is a war kd) there is no real "peace time" except Eowcf. Try to do as much of you're training then as possible because oow you should be hitting.
    this
    ALWAYS TRAIN LEETS FIRST: if you get to 12 epa as i suggest above and then u go on a plunder/abduct/growing spree you can drop to say 10 epa and up your peasent/tpa/dspecs with spare econ....but if your running under 10 epa as an orc your doing it wrong. To that end your "peace" build is a "pump" build and should only be done when in eowcf/fort trying to train up. once you hit 12 epa switch into a war pump.

    Pump builds look like
    0-30% homes
    30% banks
    15% arms
    20-50% guilds (run the homes if you have >2 wpa, otherwise pump your wpa)
    5% Towers

    And your war build will be run basically anytime you arent in pump build....the one you posted is mostly fine, just drop the 10% forts and add in 10% stables at a minimum.
    As a "best case" largest tweak drop the homes and banks (21% buildings) to play around with your build aiming for some combination of wt up to 25%, hospitals to 20%, and/or guard stations to 20%. That will be dependent on who u war and what size you are in the kd though so keeping homes/banks is fine. (note if you drop your homes, dont drop your military, run the homes/banks waiting for war with a few 100k spare gc and adjust your build when you think your about to war....your peasents will drop from 5->3 but thats fine, once u have war u dont need peasants)


    also fyi
    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal Abuse View Post
    Forts will save more pop than TG will up to a point. You should have more forts than TGs as an orc. like 10% TG and 15% Fort, or even better 8% TG and 17% fort. If someone wants to do the numbers, it should pan out.
    this is terrible advise as an orc your goal isnt to be the most effienct its to have offense so you can attack... RAW military is almost always advantageous over slightly optimized builds because 1-2 hits your buildings get all messed up. DONT run forts on an orc unless your already in war trying to pump def.
    Last edited by Persain; 26-12-2016 at 21:45.

  8. #8
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    Since no-one seem to have mentioned this yet:

    Quote Originally Posted by jackadam View Post
    Since I am kindav busy with studys and work I figured to aim for 1 attack per day and not two.
    Assuming you are serious about this, you should not play this game. There can be slack times out of war where attacking isn't critical, and you don't attack in post war ceasefire (unless something really weird is going down). But any kingdom that is organized enough to have a goal (any goal, though most want to war) requires you to log in (and attack, as an attacker) a minimum of twice each day. If you are unable to make this commitment to the game, please do not waste other's time killing you off after you've sat like a lump half the time and dragged them down. While we'd love new or returning players, this is the functional minimum to play, and there is no expectation it'll change at any point.

    If you do think you can find a way to pull off a phone login over lunch break when needed, or some other login (whatever you can make work) to manage the 2x a day, then proceed on to the rest of the advise, and I hope you have a lot of fun.
    it's vs. its is ambiguous - from now on I'm attempting to use the proper possessive it's, and the contraction 'tis. (Its will just be the plural.)

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  9. #9
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    Agree with what Persain wrote.

    Utopia is a fluid game and your build should reflect on what phase you're at. Eg different kind of pump phases.
    Also depending on who you war, dictates what buildings to counteract or assist your kingdom war goals.
    I usually go for raw numbers and use building effects to mod what I need.
    Not a fan of rainbow building strats persisting throughout the age.

  10. #10
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    Persain you are incorrect. Forts save more peasants for offense pumping of raw military. Like i said do the math, i am right. Your thoughts or feelings on the matter don't count, do the math.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal Abuse View Post
    Persain you are incorrect. Forts save more peasants for offense pumping of raw military. Like i said do the math, i am right. Your thoughts or feelings on the matter don't count, do the math.
    i have many times in the past your advise is garbage to run that many forts...as an orc you should NEVER have more forts than TG. I mean there is literally no scenario where that is ever viable as part of a planned build. The only time it could even be considered is in a VERY long war where u are geting mass aided to become an unbrekable orc. However if your kd is trying to pump up an unbreakable orc there's probably something else going on as orcs are litteraly THE worst provs to run an unbreakble on.

    For what its worth, the math doesn't pay out for REAL provs. In the past i remember the numbers being something like 5-6% forts and 25% TG to give the literal most military /acre**(i do the math here)*. However there are MANY issues with even that.

    Issues:
    1. your attack time in war is 12 hours, your build time is 16. i triple tap for land and gain say 30% land incoming. That land comes in, i build it, i attack again and hit for an additional say 25% land of my orginal size. That land comes in. Now for 4 hours i have the original 30% incoming and the 25% i just hit for incoming. This means i'm on 1/(1+.3+.25)~64.5 % of my land built. Any of those forts i relied on for def.....well they are 1/3 less effective than i planed them to be because i have 1/3 less of them built.

    2. im already on forts in my build, if im geting MS/NS'ed/NM'ed i cant easily switch up my build by adding a few extra % forts to boost my def. I'm already dedicated to the 5-10-15% forts in my build simply to keep my def at a minimum level.

    3. When geting "Chained" built land is taken first. If your build started 10-15% forts and you end up with like 50% of your land "in progress" chaining just crushes you. The enemy will easily finish you off with quad taps as you not only had desertions to your military you lost that 10-15% DME bonus as you lost the majority of your forts.

    Implications:
    These 2 things couple together really strongly in that if i started with say 48 "raw" def added in DME/MP typically thats going to jump to say 57 mod dpa. As war goes i can add in 5% forts for a free 7.5% or so def as ms/ns hit me....meaning i'll hover at 57 mod dpa even if i lose 7.5% of my def.

    Alternatively lets say i did what you are suggesting and ran like 10% initial forts and hit the same 57 mod def.....lets pull out the #'s to determine how screwed u are ~13 hours into war when my #1 case hits.

    57 mod def 1.076% wages, 1.08 science, 1.05 MP...you had 10% forts at 80% be~~1.144 forts....pulls out to
    57=1.05*(.144+1.08*1.076)*x=41.5
    So you have 41.5 raw dpa. i'll pull out the 7.5% dead military and lower the forts from 10% to 6.45% as unbuilt land comes in(9.72% def instead of 14.4%).

    41.5*(.925)*1.05*(.0972+1.08*1.076)=50.75.

    50.75 v 57 mod def ~12 hours into war may not seem like a lot...but if the enemy is trying to say quad tap you....203 opa v 228opa is a sizeable difference that the enemy has to run if they want to quad tap. Alternatively thats about 8 casts of NM you are saving the enemy if they plan to nm you down as your def is already smaller.



    *** if we dedicate 15% land to tg/forts as i was suggesting and 10% to stables as i noted its really easy to look at the math. i said
    12 epa---(12*12+8*2)=160 raw opa using leets/horses
    8 dspec/acre---8*6=48 raw dpa.
    We'll also look at 80% BE
    Now lets look at the TG/Forts mods directly to raw military. (note 5% protection v generals bonus washes out the multiplicative modifiers)

    Now the easiest way to see when tg~=~fort is to look at how much we're modifying 160/48=3.3333. That means for forts to give more of a bonus than tg 1% forts needs to give 3.333 times the bonus of an additional 1% tg. 1% forts at 80% BE gives 1.58% def boost. 1.58/3.333= 0.474. i.e. once 1 additional % of tg gives less than 0.474% boost to offense its time to run forts. This happens ~30->31% TG. i.e. with the epa/stables and current raw numbers on orc u really shouldnt run forts unless you were running more than 30% TG.
    15%<<30%...so yea dont run forts. On a side note if your giving advise it should at least be semi reasonable. You really need to not give advise if its THAT far from correct.
    Last edited by Persain; 28-12-2016 at 02:52.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan View Post
    Since no-one seem to have mentioned this yet:



    Assuming you are serious about this, you should not play this game. There can be slack times out of war where attacking isn't critical, and you don't attack in post war ceasefire (unless something really weird is going down). But any kingdom that is organized enough to have a goal (any goal, though most want to war) requires you to log in (and attack, as an attacker) a minimum of twice each day. If you are unable to make this commitment to the game, please do not waste other's time killing you off after you've sat like a lump half the time and dragged them down. While we'd love new or returning players, this is the functional minimum to play, and there is no expectation it'll change at any point.

    If you do think you can find a way to pull off a phone login over lunch break when needed, or some other login (whatever you can make work) to manage the 2x a day, then proceed on to the rest of the advise, and I hope you have a lot of fun.
    Could he be the orcish warhero in our kd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    On a side note if your giving advise it should at least be semi reasonable. You really need to not give advise if its THAT far from correct.
    I kinda take his tag seriously and just do the opposite of whatever he says.

  13. #13
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    While there are rare cases when attackers do want forts, these are *always* "flex" attackers that run significantly higher defense than normal, yet aren't hybrids. Someone that has high def elites that let them suddenly turtle up and threaten UB, or if your kingdom strat is to have 10 T/Ms opening each attacker with crushing NM waves, or something weird.

    And in all these cases... the attacker isn't an orc. Orc forces an aggressive attacker stance, which means the TGs are modding at least twice as much offense and the forts would mod def.


    Show us some math making forts look better, and I'll show you a flex attacker that was baked into the assumptions. (Or just a bad attacker, perhaps more likely.) I can make 1 + 1 = 10 just by taking a slightly different assumption, so claiming "do the math" is kinda like saying "make stuff up... but really confusingly". Turns out a lot of a real mathematician's training is about learning how to make useful assumptions about the problem - everything after that is just a fun little game we like playing in our spare time. Defining the assumptions is where the work is.
    it's vs. its is ambiguous - from now on I'm attempting to use the proper possessive it's, and the contraction 'tis. (Its will just be the plural.)

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  14. #14
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    @ethan. yes lots of attackers can run forts, but not an orc, espically not one thats going 10-12 epa. right now im running a dwarf that defintally has forts in their build. Its a far cry from orc attacker trying to run forts so it can get "more" offense...i have forts so my prov is only single-tapable army in.

  15. #15
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    First my original response was about his build that he posted before the all knowing you(Persain) decided to be a jerk. I tried to find some pot today so I could smoke it and really get into your fantasy scenario of what will happen in a war.

    The fact that you think that it is best to be able to triple tap our own province says more than anything about what YOU feel an orc should be able to do. You think having a ridiculously high opa vs stupidly low dpa as an orc is the perfect scenario is simply simple minded. He did not say his goal was to be the first target chained in a war and every war, cause that is what you described.

    Most attackers, who are not undead, don't do FINE with chains and this means you run higher def so you can't be triple tapped by your own province. It's just ridiculous to propose that strat for a non undead.

    Being able to double tap your own province is bad enough. But 3 times, just stupid. And yeah as long as you have no defense, all the forts won't matter. My advice was for someone that actually might want to not be the first target chained in every war. That means running decent defense, which means running more def specs, which completely changes the fort TG dynamic.

    Every kd, mine included has those provinces who KNOW they will be chained first because of their really high off and little def, they know it is going to happen and they relish it. Saying that that should be the NORMAL build for an Orc is a big assumption and i would love to war your kd if that is how all your non undeads are set-up.

    But you go ahead and act like you know everything and everyone elses input is crap. Yeah i got snotty after you became a jerk.

    And no, I am not gonna do the math, you keep on believing that forts only work for a dwarf. You go ahead and convince everyone that is the best strat. It will make our kd wins even easier. Thanks

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