Undead/Sage

[olAllan]

Undead/Sage, It's actually really solid.

First, I'll discuss it's strengths. It goes without saying that undead is one of the premiere attacker races. Their access to plague and plague immunity, their attacking casualties reduction, and 11/3 elites, make them an attractive race to attackers and warring kingdoms age in and age out.

However, it is their lack of need of food which I want to talk about. This lack of need for farms frees up space in your build strat for buildings which benefit sage, labs and later universities. The undead's starvation immunity also compliments the sage persona by allowing undead/sage to forgo development of food sciences (this allows you gain more scientist in the other, arguably more important sciences).

In the same way that the undead race compliments the sage personality, the sage persona compliments the undead race. Sage bolsters and accelerates science development and effectiveness- which allows you to gain greater ME more quickly, reduces to eliminates the need for banks more quickly, and coupled with homes you can accrue quite a massive population rather quickly. I

I've ran the combo for little more than a week now and I've already been able to eliminate the need for both farms and banks.

The laboratories are working a lot better than last age. I would also say that the new science system is working a lot better this age than the last.

I'll shy away from discussing the detials of my build strats because players hold different views of economics but I'd like to mention afew things about buildings in the strat. In the past when I would sage, I would keep a small science pump constantly running and I would bolster my science defense and development with schools, and a minor bit of extra SE bonus from libraries. Now I'm running a decent amount of labs but as my prov develops I will phase them down quite a bit and start splashing some universities into my start.

In wars, I'll drop out all labs in favor of more of the standard attacker buildings- barracks, training grounds, hospitals, etc.

The obvious weakness of the strat is the undead's inability to rob vaults, coupled with the cost of ghouls, slows their development somewhat. This makes fortifying undead's favorite stance. Fortify doesn't help a developing sage though- your scientist will not progress towards professorship and because scientist will not develop while in fort. Laboratories are practically useless in fort. Therefore, as undead/sage, you'll both love and hate fortifying.

Do I consider undead the most powerful variety of sage? No, to my mind the most powerful sages would be dwarf/sage and halfling sage. However, I do consider the undead variety of sage the most interesting for the reasons I mentioned.

[The Moon]

Undead are a good option as you say - but ive found i miss thief ops and therefore honour when i choose them. Not needing to feed or stress plague is an ease for the mind though ...

I still reckon ghouls should be called vampires.

[s0830887]

Sage is pretty much good with anything this age, and undead is the easiest province in the game to play, so I can see the benefits.

The big 'disappointment' I see with it is that no food and no thievery almost hurts sage, as you miss out on the bonuses in 2/7 sciences. That just seems sad to me.

[NakMuay]

Yeah and Undead's were indirectly nerfed with the buff to food science (as a Dwarf/Sage, when my science is maxed, I can run 3% farms - the Undead "no farms" seems pretty silly at that point).

I chose Dwarf basically for clear sight - but the free building cost and 15% BE is wayyyy stronger than I had anticipated - I am by far the most pumped in my kingdom (got up to 15 EPA and 2.2 WPA by the end of our last fort after our first war). The Undead's in my kingdom have had issues pumping, due to higher gc costs from switching buildings and the higher elite cost.

I agree with the 'disappointment' of not being able to take advantage of food/thievery - once I can max my sciences I'll be running a semi hybrid strat, 4wpa/3tpa so I can op the weakest of the enemy core attackers and be immune to non elf/mystic and halfer/rogue t/m's.

As a side note, I think undead/sage would be the strongest mid age province since you'll be behind on maxing science (I have 4 in food, running 10% farms as Dwarf currently). But sage is always the strongest mid age personality now - you can farm non-sages for scientists and be almost completely protected with 2-6% uni's, depending on your scientist numbers.

[olAllan]

What do you mean, you wouldn't invest in crime sciences? Last time I checked, the crime sciences increase your mod tpa, this not only accounts for ops success but ops defense. Even if you are not running thief ops you need to put up some form of resistance to both magic and thievery.

Do what you like with your province of course but if I see someone with notta invested in crime I'll sick my hybrids on him. ;)

I don't see it that way. The way I see it is- because you don't have to invest scientist in food, you can get to max in all other sciences that much quicker. I also think after I get to max (when ever that maybe) I'll be able to stock up on scientists over max. This way if and when I get hit with an abduction it will not likely drop me below what is necessary to maintain the cap for long if ever.

I'll concede that dwarf is greater than undead as sage but I'm convinced that halfling is the strongest of the sage combos. And perhaps the strongest combo the game has known since dwarf/architect. It's all about those huge populations they (and only they) can muster.

The undead's inability to rob. Yes that does slow their development pretty significantly and forces every undead (except rouges) to rely heavily on plundering.

I know undead/sage is not the strongest combo I can think of but I'm having a blast with it thus far. And isn't that the point of playing the game anyhow?

I may evolve it from HA to A/m (just a little m, to be able to run fb over attackers). Still on the fence about that atm.

[marksss]

undead rogue is best

[StratOcastle]

Undead sage is rock'n'roll. It's hard to find a better hostile combo.

Undead rogue is cool to.

Actually these two together can crap all over enemy core provinces.

Instant Text Cartoon - The Rogue & The Sage: core molesters
(we find our heroes in the midst of questioning a victim)

Sage: Forget something?

Rogue: Yeah, he forgot his wallet.

[olAllan]

The first war test was successful but it was an unfair fight so . . . we baited a weaker kingdom and their aggression gave us the button.

[olAllan]

I guess I'll share my thoughts on the build strat with you all. Because of the nature of the game, buildings will be shuffled in and out based on situational needs- development/training, wizard and scientist pumping etc.

I will also, at some point, splash in Universities (up to 10% should suffice with my bonus). And a note on banks, I've elliminated the need for banks already. If you are a big fan of banks, good for you but I'm more of an armories based economist in the game. To each his/her own. I'll be using banks as needed (in fort and other status which allow me to rebuild (like now eowcf).

Also on labs, in fort I will likely switch quite a bit of the into banks but also maybe more armories (undead leets you know). Labs are rendered useless in for, with the exception of jobs.

OOW Running Strat

22% Armories
18% Laboratories
12% Guilds
12% Homes
12% Training Grounds
10% Hospitals
8% Stables
4% Towers
2% Dungeons

Heading into war, I'll swing out my laboratories for 14-15% barracks and add 3-4% to training grounds. As war progresses, I tend to splash in other other buildings, which ones I use is a situation based thing. I do this by not maintaining economic buildings, like homes and armories, which I let drop as low as 5% homes and 10% armories respectively. This give me 17% of buildings which I can audible into guard stations or watch towers or whatever as war progresses. I sometimes let my guilds slide down to 8%, which can give me an extra 4% land to audible.

[HerpNDerp]

Undead sage is great up until the moment you get chained in a war. Then your sci bonuses don't benefit you nearly as much as a core attacker personality would (like UD/War).

[olAllan]

Undead sage is great up until the moment you get chained in a war. Then your sci bonuses don't benefit you nearly as much as a core attacker personality would (like UD/War).

No combo nor role is immune to the effects of chaining. I'll handle myself just fine lad, I've been through many wars. :)

[ape]

What Herp means is that if u get chained, and, perhaps, loose all buildings and such, you (as in not you perosnally, but you in general) might wish that you had 5 generals to send out, as warrior, or perhaps just being cleric, to get some loss reduction since all your hosps are gone, or tact, since all ur rax also might be gone. But the Sage will have awsome numbers and be strong and can be hard to buckle. As an opponent of other Sages, its good to know their weaknesses too.

[StratOcastle]

My undead sage was chained twice last age pretty hard, but who hasn't been? In the field(war/oow/hostile) I think experience is yours to exercise. I was as comfortable playing sage as any other attacker role. It really depends on how you apply the art.

I certainly think the other attacker roles have their place, just as I feel every race has it's strengths. I developed a decent wpa to compliment my elites. One thing I can say is it was easier to play than the human cleric I have this age.

My way of playing isn't to look for optimal performance, I look for challenge and experiment with new toys. I played undead sage last age to see how the new science system worked and if sage was a bust personality. Turned out much better than I expected and is better this age,.. for what I would build. It's far and away superior to human cleric oow because the reactive combination of higher science defense, heartbreaking spell casting and a high caliber attacking, sustaining offense make the undead sage a meter boss.

In war you still have amnesia which I used to restrict my enemies versatility. Once I saw the dynamic of moving scientists I knew by draining tenur my enemies would be forced to leave themselves open. You just have to find where.

Again, I personally wouldn't load a kingdom with undead sage, but I can certainly vouch for it's considerable work ethics. One of my favorite feelings in the game is being able to take on anyone and undead sage gives you this ability. To qualify this, I see heretic as super tough in its wheelhouse, but wanting when fighting "up". I see a plethora of avians builds that run circles around most attacker races, but they have to use the meter, and they aren't as efficient in breaking t/ms. I love having avians in kingdom, btw.

You have to remember that I don't attack unprovoked* This is part of what makes the game challenging for me. I could've abducted all age.

* I will retal for kingdom mates; particulary t/ms. Or, if we're ordered to wave. Even so, I often won't attack until the enemy begins ops. This is out of respect for those who don't want to war. I've never wanted to fight the unwilling.

[ape]

I hear ya, it does matter how you play the sage. But it still seems to me that "everyone gets chained the same", doesnt really apply. It does matter how you do the different combos, but it still doesnt seem valid to say "every combo is equally good". As I tried to argue, that tact, warrior, cleric etc, does get something that a sage in the position of being in the dirt, might not get. Sterngth and weakness, in different sitution. It can be difficult to work your wpa in that position too, unelss u got some friendly mates to support u with lots of runes.

[olAllan]

If you want to argue some angles like attrition and say that cleric has a specific advantage in being chained, or dwarf being able to build quickly and freely gives them a racial advantage in that situation; that is all well and good. However, they fall all the same. There is no practical advantage that can overcome the effects of chaining, nor whether or not the chains against you serve their purpose, which is to lay you into the pit. The only sure way to deal with chaining is to fight through it.

War is a net worth dance, not a combo peeing contest.