Explore cost deduced

[Palem]

The problem isn't that he used people's Intel to map out the explore formula. The problem is Munk has defended his tool by saying that while he does have access to everyone's information, he would never actually access it. The only thing he has to stand on is his word. But here he is, accessing people's information (presumably without most of their permissions) on a whim of wanting to do something.

Tldr: Munk has given you no reason to believe he's not accessing your information for a strategic advantage.

Important note: I am not claiming that Munk is definitely cheating and spying on everyone using Munk.

[Meep]

The problem isn't that he used people's Intel to map out the explore formula. The problem is Munk has defended his tool by saying that while he does have access to everyone's information, he would never actually access it. The only thing he has to stand on is his word. But here he is, accessing people's information (presumably without most of their permissions) on a whim of wanting to do something.

Tldr: Munk has given you no reason to believe he's not accessing your information for a strategic advantage.

Important note: I am not claiming that Munk is definitely cheating and spying on everyone using Munk.

There's a reason he posted the formulas here instead of using the entire game's exploration cost data for CRs benefit only, and it's not because he was just using everyone's data for personal gain.

Now, I've got know idea how he manages his data or extracted this information from his database, but it seems like it should have been pretty simple to blindly pull the bulk explore cost data for this purpose

[Palem]

You're missing the point.

Many people use Munk on the promise that their information is secure and private. Munk has just made it clear that it's not. He will access it if he wants to. Altruistic intentions aside that's messed up

[Korp]

Who are these people Palem, have they reached out to you and expressed their concern how their privacy was violated after munk pulled their explore cost? :) To what people did he distrubute the data to since their apparently no longer private and secure he must have handed it to a third party?

[Band of Horses]

What next mink hacking my Web cam? I've seen black mirror

[Binar]

Many people use Munk on the promise that their information is secure and private

Then they are silly people

[Palem]

From this thread:
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...for-my-kingdom

I've used both stinger and munk. And trust them both with my intel.

I've used both stinger and munk. And trust them both with my intel.

I'd like to echo this

I've used both stinger and munk. And trust them both with my intel.

Agreed

Its pretty silly to think munk would abuse his bot for intel..

you guys know there is legalities in place for anyone who charges you money for a service?

In saying that, both Munk and Stinger should be trustworthy if for nothing else than being law abiding

And from the horses mouth:

I understand arguments about stealing intel. At the end of they day, I ask people to trust that I won't abuse it. The main argument I've used when confronted about is, is that fact that I've spent way longer on creating the system (1000s of hours since 2012) than I do on "winning" in utopia. So to risk losing the credibility that is so hard to build up, for the sake of some "intel" that can be gained by simple in-game ops would never be worth it -- Why risk all the effort used to build up munkbot for that (besides being a douche)?

So, yes, I don't think it's silly to suggest that munk users trust munk to not access their intel.


Again, I'm not suggesting munk is some cheating monster that's using everyone's intel for his own gain, but there's a level of trust regarding security that's been violated

[munk]

I guess it's a matter of interpretation what abuse is. I don't see it as abuse if I use munkbot data to deduce an ingame formula and give the information to everyone. I would see it as abuse if I did not share the findings as I would be giving myself an insight into the game based on munkbot intel.

Abuse for me is if I use intel for my own gain for my province, my kingdom or anyone else for that matter. I have never and would never do that for the reason I've stated several times and that you also quote.

You see it as a breach that I collected a type of data that the users were unaware of and in hindsight I appreciate how that can be perceived as abuse for some and that is unfortunate. Ideally I had made the choice optional to allow data to be collected for such "deductions".

Similarly, if I had the time I would get more information about thievery mechanics and magic mechanics and make them part of the tools -- currently these are something a few have a rough idea about and I think it would help level the playing field if less experienced players could understand these. I could do so based only own my own KD but would I then not share it? I'd prefer a solution where I look at the whole dataset and make the finding public, but I understand how some would not want to partake, and if I do want to do that in the future I should ask for permission or at a minimum allow people to be left out.

[Binar]

@Pam

all the people you quoted are silly people!

[Minty]

How about not going off on other peoples behalf. Speak for yourself and let other people say if they consider this abuse or not themselves. Just because you are a moderator doesn't mean you speak for everyone. It's annoying. I've posted comments like the ones you quoted before at one point, and I don't have a problem with this. If you have that problem then let that stand for yourself. We aint looking for your White-Knighting. If anyone wants to stop using munk because of this then go ahead. Use Upoopu or some other ghetto tool instead

[Band of Horses]

@Pam

all the people you quoted are silly people!

Words hurt.

This mink stuff reminds me of the US NSA metadata stuff Snowden leaked. Just how my simple mind works

[Meep]

You're missing the point.

Many people use Munk on the promise that their information is secure and private. Munk has just made it clear that it's not. He will access it if he wants to. Altruistic intentions aside that's messed up

They use it on the premise that he won't abuse it. Their identifiable data is indeed private.

Pulling anonymous bulk data from the database to extrapolate a formula isn't abuse

Abuse would be "let me check and see how many soldiers and gc emeriti is about to have to use to explore that cow"

What he did here is no different than if Bishop says 'oh hey how many scientists did everyone end up with at eoa' for the sake of refining the scientist spawn formulas.

[Korp]

From this thread:
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...for-my-kingdom













And from the horses mouth:


So, yes, I don't think it's silly to suggest that munk users trust munk to not access their intel.


Again, I'm not suggesting munk is some cheating monster that's using everyone's intel for his own gain, but there's a level of trust regarding security that's been violated

They trust him with their Intel and has it been abused? No so the trust is intact. Promoting and giving back to the community is abuse these days?

[Palem]

I guess it's a matter of interpretation what abuse is.

Don't you not hear the Bill Clinton resemblance? Anyway, it sounds like you understand where you've erred. If you want to use people's information, you need their permission. Using your tool isn't tacit agreement that you can use data whenever you see fit.

They use it on the premise that he won't abuse it. Their identifiable data is indeed private

And you know that how?

What he did here is no different than if Bishop says 'oh hey how many scientists did everyone end up with at eoa' for the sake of refining the scientist spawn formulas.

There's a very big difference. The game data is created and primarily exists in the game. As the game admin Bishop has every right to use it. There's absolutely no realistic expectations from the players that the admins don't look at and analyze player data.

Munk has stated that the data you have on uMunk is private. There's only 3 realistic reasons I could think of that Munk would have permission to access it and that's being

1. There was some situation in which he needed to access it for dev purposes.
2. He asked I gave permission
3. I asked him to

Being curious about the explore formula doesn't fall into any of those categories

How about not going off on other peoples behalf. Speak for yourself and let other people say if they consider this abuse or not themselves. Just because you are a moderator doesn't mean you speak for everyone. It's annoying. I've posted comments like the ones you quoted before at one point, and I don't have a problem with this. If you have that problem then let that stand for yourself. We aint looking for your White-Knighting. If anyone wants to stop using munk because of this then go ahead. Use Upoopu or some other ghetto tool instead

Where in the hell did I even come close to saying that I speak on behalf of the utopia community because I'm a mod? I have a problem with what munk did and I'm expressing that. I have just as much right to do that as anyone else. It's not exactly a leap of faith that users use tools with the trust that their data isn't being compromised, especially since that exact sentiment has been discussed at length and explicitly stated and in direct discussion uMunk.

I'm sure there's plenty of people that have absolutely no problem with this and that's fine. I'm simply raising a concern that munk himself just admitted isn't unreasonable

[khronosschoty]

Don't you not hear the Bill Clinton resemblance? Anyway, it sounds like you understand where you've erred. If you want to use people's information, you need their permission. Using your tool isn't tacit agreement that you can use data whenever you see fit.

And you know that how?



There's a very big difference. The game data is created and primarily exists in the game. As the game admin Bishop has every right to use it. There's absolutely no realistic expectations from the players that the admins don't look at and analyze player data.

Munk has stated that the data you have on uMunk is private. There's only 3 realistic reasons I could think of that Munk would have permission to access it and that's being

1. There was some situation in which he needed to access it for dev purposes.
2. He asked I gave permission
3. I asked him to

Being curious about the explore formula doesn't fall into any of those categories



Where in the hell did I even come close to saying that I speak on behalf of the utopia community because I'm a mod? I have a problem with what munk did and I'm expressing that. I have just as much right to do that as anyone else. It's not exactly a leap of faith that users use tools with the trust that their data isn't being compromised, especially since that exact sentiment has been discussed at length and explicitly stated and in direct discussion uMunk.

I'm sure there's plenty of people that have absolutely no problem with this and that's fine. I'm simply raising a concern that munk himself just admitted isn't unreasonable

Great Post here -- thanks Palem!