Science

[Deathlyric]

Suggestion:

Go back to the old ways since clearly this way have failed two times massively.
It's like the game is in Beta once again.

Or if you so much want this system, suggestion.
Instead of spawning, make it so you have to buy them.

And while you grow, you need more since the science will be effected with upholding acres.
And you start with 0 scientists from the bloody start.

Whats the use of science when everyone have 20% pop science after YR3 and the chaining system is off. Players with 200 acres can keep 160k offense, yes no defense almost, but who needs it since their NW will be huge with the Elits, gains on them is useless and they gain 30-50 acres/ hit anyway. Meaning after the first wave, they can't be deep chained again.

IT'S EARLY AGE, Not end game with an over pumped player in science that has been active and done learns all age to get there.
And we can't really take away his science to reduce the pop % science abductions only gains 1-2 / hit = Useless. Compare to end game when you took 60-300k Science in one hit.


So suggest:

Start with 0 scientists
Stop making the game an "who gets lucky to get an scientist"
Need gc to pay for an scientist
When growing, you'll need more scientists in an category to uphold the same amount of %.

Or why not just go back to the old ways that clearly worked with the programming....

This age should be 6 yrs long since it's such an bugged age.

[Korp]

The game wants to move away from buyable science, thats the whole point.

If you find any major bugs you can always report them but science isnt bugged cause you dont like it. :/

[Deathlyric]

The game wants to move away from buyable science, thats the whole point.

If you find any major bugs you can always report them but science isnt bugged cause you dont like it. :/

Its a bugg if your 100% maxed in science at age 3

[Bishop]

Its a bugg if your 100% maxed in science at age 3

No it's not.

[Thunder TA]

Bishop has already posted before that next age it will be somewhere between last age and this age. its a work in progress.read some old threads already made about it.

[The Moon]

What price for a Scientist? (Hypothetically)

Unless its dependant on acres and networth like runes ... perhaps a price that would daunting during the start of the Age - 150,000 gold coins?

[NighT]

I completely agree with Deathlyric. Aside from the fact that sages are way stronger than the other personalities, sciences are completely and utterly useless (not even going to talk about the broken system of luck / not having to make any effort and have no sense of accomplishment).

There's no way to make yourself have an unique province, because in week 3 (25% of the age..) people have capped all their sciences. And you know what, there might be a few slowpokes around there, who cap by week 4, true. But it cant possibly be the goal that all players have the exact same sciences (modified by personalities, sure) capped out early to mid age?

Previously, at least I could decide to forgo perhaps channeling sciences, to get 120% crime rather than 100%. Giving me a small edge against other thieves, while leaving me vulnerable to magics (not saying it's good/bad, just saying I could). Right now all sciences are the same for everybody. All rogues got the same crime sciences, all mages the same channeling. It gives the only edge in Honor (which is rather difficult to build a distinct edge on) and raw numbers.
As it is, sciences might as well be removed, and the personality-bonuses converted into a +tpa/wpa bonus (and something for sages/heretic).

Sciences used to be a fun mechanic whereby running a proper province I could get a small edge against other people, and compete intra-KD with a few of my KD mates on who could have the higher BPA. It gave me something to do OOW (learns) to build and increase my province. I just left war, fully trained as human sage by the end of CF and now I got a week of sitting with my thumb up my ... waiting for others to get war ready. There's nothing worth investing in or spending any sort of care for, because these hard caps and the already capped sciences yield no reward what-so-ever.

Can we please get back to the old system, and then perhaps replace books with BPA if you dont want size to influence sciences?

Regards,
NighT

[Elldallan]

Can we please get back to the old system, and then perhaps replace books with BPA if you dont want size to influence sciences?

Then what if you don't want pumping to significantly influence science? That was one of the huge issues with the old system, how do you bring back the old system without also bringing back pumping?

[NighT]

Decrease the effect BPA has after a set amount?

It used to be like:
10 bpa = 1%
20 bpa = 1.8%
30 bpa = 2.5%

Could make it like:
10 bpa = 1.5%
20 bpa = 2%
30 bpa = 2.3%

Still makes it worth it for people to pump, but makes a little pumping much more effective, and a lot of pumping only marginally more effective. Obviously these numbers need to be tweaked by the math-wizards. But I hope you get the point.
I never much experienced trouble with the whole science pumping. But that was probably mostly because I was in a warring kingdom and we'd just get our sciences via warring (and winning). Obviously there's always 2-3 "top" kingdoms who are able to take advantage of bugs / massive economies to pump or whatnot. But these changes would make sciences a heck of a lot more playable (and fun) for the other 98% of the kingdoms out there.

There's absolutely no point to sciences in this system. People are going to cap out, people are all going to be the same.

Regards,
NighT

[Madchess]

well I like the idea of starting with less scientists than what is needed to max out a category, like 0 or 5 or something similair.

With spawn rates getting tweaked what I'd really like to see on top of that would be.

1. to have abducts generate gb protection, other attack types ensure that you can't just hit the same target over and over, as it is you could hit the same target and get 5,5,4 scientists on 3 attacks (the drop to 4 beeing from fewer overall scientists), I'd like it to be more like 5,2,1 on 3 succesive hits, cause you kill a bunch of military and leave a province wide open for further attacks.

2. To have the scientists generate more nw so it would be nesesarily to find a ballance between maxing out and having to many. I'd like to have science reflect nw/acre more, perhaps make it nw/acre/scientist insted of flat rate so smaller provinces don't get penalised.

3. Decrease the effects of each new scientist added to a category, perhaps with lifted cap or increased cap.

[Goodwitch]

If it's the science for gold issue you are trying to avoid how about rewarding science only for activities.
regardless of if you call it books or scientists, they could be awarded for example for attacks, explored acres, successful thieving or magic operations. Finding a balance between all possible rewards would of course be important.
This could potentially increase activity, cut down on boring pump times and give those people that like to play for science a goal to work for.

I think the scientists with their names was a cute and novel idea, but it makes navigating the game especially on mobile devices much harder. Maybe there could be an option to just show totals instead of them all split up.

Also it would be more fun if at the beginning of the age you took all ruler names on the server and used them randomly for names of scientists added to the ones from irc you are already using.

[Halta]

I'm kind of enjoying the new system. It's a lot more intuitive, the old science system always felt like a chore to me.

[chalsdk]

Keep sceince as it is.

But make demionising returns.

[Sephi]

So 1) dont go back, buying science was OP for those who knew how to abuse it. or do you want to face a rogue with 400% thievery sci? and yes we had that a couple of times. send in the others to MV and GA and he would just shred a T/M with AW or prop.

I like the current spawning rate. You get some every day, gives you something to do. So do not drop it too much, atm its something which you check when you login, instead of old settings where you had 4 days without easily.

However I agree that everyone maxes out too soon in the age. Thus we have to look for other tweaks.
Personally I would like to suggest the following
1) Maintain base spawning rate the same.
2) Reconsider the other spawning rate modifiers (might be lowered a bit imo)
3) Add another 2-3 categories between recruit and prof.(for example: recruit-novice-graduate-junior prof-prof-dean) upgrading takes 6h from recruit to novice and 48h for all further steps. Resulting in 198h till max is reached, compared to 174 now(correct me if I am wrong)
4) Roughly half the max influence of each scientist. so you need: 30 (alch), 40 (be), 50 (pop), 40 (food), 50 (ME), 40(Thievery), 45(magic).

and then pick one of those 3
5) add one bonus category per race and pers (bar sage having something of everything). OR
6) allow every player to pick 2 bonus and 1 penalty categories at age start, giving two a 15% higher cap and one a 20% lower cap (what to do about undead food is then the Q). OR
7) Make buildings influence your scientist generation or the cap of a science field(eg take food sci, you got 100% and with 10% farms it becomes 110%, with 5% farms 105%; or with 20% homes 10% pop becomes 11% pop, just throwing out numbers as example. Finetuning would be the next step)

thats my 2 cents :) feel free to further discuss tweaks.

[Shockwave]

My 2 cents: 1.) Buying science gave a significant advantage to those who got big early. So much so that the only way to compete was to get big early. The new system, though it needs tweaking, allows for a kd to war for most of the age and not be at a significant sci disadvantage to the top kd. so they can't fight on fairly even terms. I like this as it may evolve into more than just your standard whoring strats to crown. (this is from the whoring side of the fence)

2.) For warring kds, it means they can spend less time pumping and more time warring. when you have to take a couple weeks an age to pump sci, that's a couple more wars you can have. (if this is your cup of tea, which it's not mine!)

So in conclusion: buying sci sucks, but with some tweaks this could be a good system. knock back the spawn rate and we'll see where it goes. I don't care if it feels like the betas, I've been around since then anyway, it's kinda nostalgic :P