The Great Race Debate

[Fisher-Price]

So how do you beat undead war hero cores?

*Im looking at you newly appointed mods*

:)

-Price

[jmiedema]

So how do you beat undead war hero cores?

*Im looking at you newly appointed mods*

:)

-Price

Hmm lots of ospecs in their military, and dspecs, no Clear Sight -35% sci (equating to -35% tpa compared to other non-undead attackers)

If only there was a race and personality combo that could take advantage of that terrible thievery defense and propaganda them army home (or just NS)

:P

Nah, in all seriousness -35% sci hurts more than people think.. that is *approximately* -5% population, -5% Military efficiency, -10% Income, -7% Building Efficiency, -35% Thievery effectiveness, -43.75% WPA, -42% rune production.
If undead had all those things listed out in their "negatives" column, people would give it a closer look. -sci hurts... -35% sci hurts.. ALOT. They won't feel it early age, but wars in the last month of the age i think you will see undead core's drop off quite a bit.

Also, if ever they don't use anon, you know what to do.. Just remember that their ospecs defend ambushes at a 6, not a 9, and mmm those juicy 1 defense leets.. mmmm tasty.

[Persain]

So how do you beat undead war hero cores?

*Im looking at you newly appointed mods*

:)

-Price

hehe...my gut response is im here to help with "strategy" not teach everyone my next age setup. harass the other new mod for that since he plays in less typical war kds that are gonna be waring undead cores :P. Probubly not that helpfull so with out building my setup here lets go with

First,
-----
General thoughts that should help but u'd have to "just trust me". As jmiedema said undead really isnt that strong. Even with war hero its unlikely they overtake orc offense ever. That is the only time they'll have more offense than an orc on a given acre size is if fully chained and pure leet.. With that said my math suggests than human/orc/undead will all have about the same offense per NET WORTH which outside of the top 2-3 whore kds is all that matters. So if your goal is to break t/m's pre war you get 3 options
1. undead -high off good sustain
2. orc-just tear apart the t/m as fast as u can as hard as you can
3. human- fastest attacker of the 3, great econ, viable turtle (GP and the x/5 leet)

Note: dwarf/avain both have compareable off/nw to the above...its about 10% less but given their other bonus's are designed to not just be a power hitter.


Second
--------...how to setup a kd. (more helpfull but still not my kds tenative setup)

1. background info
One of the key things i examine in a kd is"chaining" I personally determine this by looking at-- chain capability=gains mod/attack speed*# of generals
4 examples
Human cleric = 1/1*4=4
Undead war hero=1.1/1*4=4.4
Avain tact=.95/(.75*.8)*4=6.33
orc warrior=1.25/1*5=6.25
(note:orc is a bit special next age as hitting them gives enemy +20% gains....but i'll ignor that "for now" as i examine how to counter ud warhero since im not 100% designing your kd)

2. Examining potential enemies

typical setup with undead warhero
15 undead warhero
3 halfer rogue
2 feary rogues
3 elf mystics
2 feary mystics
it might not be perfect but its a good basis.

3. how to counter enemies
---a. My first answer is well lets just all run that the most coordinated kds should win so simply "be better", and size your provs such that u have and advantage and you win. Just like chess everyone has the same thing and it play out litteraly who runs a better kd/exact in war strategy. You can always just "tweak" the base and see what happens for flavor. i.e. +-2 undeads. Small changes could give one side an advantage. If you tweaked that to 14 undeads and i chose 16 undeads it could play out that i have 2 extra undeads when all attackers are chained and combined with my bounce waving i manage to take down 5.5 of your t/m's to you taking down 3 of mine. Ends up with u have 1 weak/half chained t/m less than i do and the t/m battle goes in my favor. (good example this age was the dwarf-sage+t/m kds (of which mine was one) and the human-sage+t/m kds both did good overall dwarf was better and dwarf v dwarf wars boiled down to which kd was better)

---b.Lets look to directly counter EXAMPLE. The way i start is war hero chains at an effective max rate of 4.4...while orc warrior chains at 6.25. Soooo an orc warrior core will massively outchain the undeads buuuut they require you use all 5 generals to attack...so hrm. my offense on an orc is 13 while undeads are say 15*.66+9*.33=~13 so its not not like i'll magically just have extra offense to make the extra generals useful. How do i lower enemy def enough to 5 tap? i could nm wave? that makes my counter setup

15 orc warrior
3 halfer rogues
3 elf mystics
4 feary heretics.
now i chain faster but my t/m's are weaker, AND my offense wont sustain like an undeads. Is my faster chaining "enough" to counter less sustain/weaker t/m's. Maybe not

how about i swap out orc warrior for undead warrior... I chain faster have comparable offense but i need to 5 tap..crap my t/m's are still weaker. So how about undead tact....now i chain faster have similar sustain and i only need to 4 tap....but again !#@$@! my offense droped. well i am chaining faster how much faster am i chaining. 15*4.4=66 effecitve chain capability on war hero, 15*5=75 chain capability on tact. hrm....if i take away 3 undead tact (who each had 5 in the chaining speed) i get 3 "extra" provs i can play with and make t/m's (66 v 65 now..close enough)

12 undead tacts
3 halfer rogue
2 feary rogues
3 elf mystics
2 feary mystics
3 feary heretics

since 12 undead tacts chain at the same "speed" as 15 undead war heros, AND sustain compareably i now have to simply say hrm.. can 3 feary heretics nm enough to overcome the extra war hero coversions? let say yes.

So i came up with a counter.....now we have the same base t/m's in both kds and the same "effective" attackers in both kds its mostly even. But, since i have the 3 extra hereitcs i can lose more t/m's and take greater risks with low def as i try to op your t/ms. Remember now to if we both lose t/m each i lost 1/13=7.7% of my t/m's while u lost 1/10-10% of your t/m's. lol...i have just come up with the setup FS used alot in prior ages....run faster/better sustaining attackers and more t/m's...since long term t/m's most t/m go ub i always have the advantage there :D.

-----------------
Note...this is ONE way to go about designing a setup. its not exactly flashy, but it'll work. another way is say okay im gonna start with say 25 undeads instead of a "typical" setup how would all 25 deal with the standard setup "long term"...start tweaking from there

[AquaSeaFoam]

... offense per NET WORTH which outside of the top 2-3 whore kds is all that matters.

This may not be true for the coming age since the gains formula is being tweaked and will now include a land based gains factor. I don't have any inside info on how this will work though.

[Persain]

This may not be true for the coming age since the gains formula is being tweaked and will now include a land based gains factor. I don't have any inside info on how this will work though.

it might not effect gains anymore but it effects who u war. In the war tier you have to build a kd that balances both land and nw. At least some of waring is more than just the right strategy to overpower your enemy, its psychologically getting the other guy to fight you. Prior to them introducing the nw win you had to convince the enemy that you deserve a win as well. Its like before the nw win, if i wared a kd that was being assholes all age and they were beating me, and taunting me i'd just tell my kd to go afk....aim to avoid pk but basically just sit doing nothing....they'll withdraw out of bored eventually, refuse to give a war win and there was nothing that could be done about it.

Case in point.
If you have a kd thats 50k acres and 14.5 million nw and i have a kd thats 65k acres and 15.1 million nw you are going to turn me down for war constantly. i mean look im 18% bigger than you AND have 4% more nw. Some people might think "well persain is just land fat" but when you take my intell and i have insane off/def and good tpa/wpa you just get scared and go yea way to big.

If you have a kd thats 50k acres and 14.5 million nw and i have a kd thats 52k acres and 15.1 million nw you are probubly going to war me. You look at our numbers and see hrm hes 4% bigger in both nw/land. I might be able to overcome that lets look at intell...yea hes got high off/def (exact same as the guy on 65k acres) but its not THAT big of and advantage sure i'll fight.

[StratOcastle]

Hmm lots of ospecs in their military, and dspecs, no Clear Sight -35% sci (equating to -35% tpa compared to other non-undead attackers)

If only there was a race and personality combo that could take advantage of that terrible thievery defense and propaganda them army home (or just NS)

:P

Nah, in all seriousness -35% sci hurts more than people think.. that is *approximately* -5% population, -5% Military efficiency, -10% Income, -7% Building Efficiency, -35% Thievery effectiveness, -43.75% WPA, -42% rune production.
If undead had all those things listed out in their "negatives" column, people would give it a closer look. -sci hurts... -35% sci hurts.. ALOT. They won't feel it early age, but wars in the last month of the age i think you will see undead core's drop off quite a bit.

Also, if ever they don't use anon, you know what to do.. Just remember that their ospecs defend ambushes at a 6, not a 9, and mmm those juicy 1 defense leets.. mmmm tasty.

I've been wondering why everyone sees the 15/1 on undead and not the 9/8 on dwarf. Because it's less than 10?
Anyway, I agree and concur on the -35% science being a serious challenge. The fact that undead will be running slack on offense will drive OCD neat freaks crazy.

I'm contemplating their role in The Virtual Kingdom as sage because I feel this will draw them close enough to be scary. I don't want to make them tac because intel is important and they're more susceptible to overpopulation.
Warrior is almost a must for orcs because their value is in dishing it out. I feel making orcs cleric might be wasted due to the losses in resource might overwhelm the survivability of the defense. Persain points out my reservations for undead warrior this age.

I'm not sure how the mechanics for undead war hero would go. I know in The Virtual Kingdom that war hero makes more sense on dwarves because the dynamics are fully in their court with the exception of conversion survival metrics.

Off topic, my greatest riddle will be humans. Probably tacticians.

[Verminator]

So how do you beat undead war hero cores?

Run a better undead war hero core.