merged kingdoms...

[Wolfric]

Any success stories or are all doomed to fail?

I kind of wish they would stop merging kingdoms, unless everyone is on board with a singular goal it's going to be very hard to achieve any degree of success and all that happens is that half the kingdom defects/joins other kingdoms with goals they want to strive for leaving behind a skeleton of a kingdom that everyone is happy to feed on!

I don't think it's helping the game, we are already losing players and not attracting enough new ones, I don't have a solution for a better way to deal with the handful of people from a previous age but surely this random merging isn't it?

I've seen some mention smaller kingdoms but I don't like that idea either. Maybe give the kingdoms a choice, do you want to merge or not?

Posting here, because this is as much about strategy of running a successful kingdom as it is about suggesting a solution to dealing with handfuls of players in half empty kingdoms.

[Coldhearted]

I have done two pretty successful mergers in the last about 10 ages. Generally speaking when a kingdom gets to 10 to 12 active dedicated players with 10 what I call casual or fill in players I look for a merge. Why you ask? It's simple half the kingdom wants to compete at a high level and the other half doesn't. So at that point you have two choices merge or preform at a lower level. Then your good players leave and your stuck with causal players. I definitely suggest mergers overall though but be honest about it. I mean you could combine the two causal half and have two kingdoms.

[AquaSeaFoam]

I think the most important part of a merger is ensuring that the merged leadership is compatible. The leadership from the two kingdoms should discuss, in advance, what goals you want to have for the merged kingdom as well as what roles each leader will have.

Many merger failures occur when the leadership from each kingdom expects to be the "main" leader with the other kingdoms leaders just supporting them or when the goals from each leadership are incompatible. You also need to ensure that there are no major personality clashes among the key leadership.

If the merged leadership can get along and agree on a structure and goals, then I think mergers are a great way to strengthen a kingdom that is looking to improve.

[StratOcastle]

Couldn't say it better myself.

Besides deciding leadership is kingdom culture. One has to remember that the remnants of a proud kingdom may have value. I've personally seen a merge dissolved because the decided leader didn't care what value the core of the other kingdom brought.

We must always try to care if we are in a position of leadership. As a kingdom hopper for the good of the game, the merge would relinquish my position in what I saw as potentially a crown winner. I'm not into that so I went on my merry way. A look back in the rearview mirror and I saw the losses pile up and the same problems started all over. In this case the leader failed and repeated the reason a merge was required in the first place.

I "get" alpha dog BS, but it's got to be more than an elaborate troll. Hell, some of these guys don't even realize they're trolls to the kingdoms they lead. This is partly why delegation is a primer for good leadership. Trust is a motivational tool that has a burn in period. Mistakes will happen, but through delegation can be sorted out objectively from the balance of voices. Delegating is good practice for merges because you're allowing for a task force to work in the kingdom interest.

In the shoes of the OP I'm inclined to suggest the wall. Sure it's a mechanical compromise, but mechanics are for championships not reloading. There's a few low province kingdoms lurking the charts this age. If quality numbers are what you're looking for I wouldn't hesitate.

Noted what Coldhearted said about merging etiquette; you can merge the actives in one and the casuals in another. This should result in potentially two happy kingdoms.

[Shrinky]

Very very important to talk to the leader of the KD that you are planning to merge with. Find out what their goals are and what their playing style is like. If it's compatible with the goals and playing style of your KD, then chances of a successful merger are high. Also, before the merger, agree on who will be the leader of the merged KD. Ideally one should be the monarch and the other should be steward (unless there are time issues). This way both KDs are represented and no one feels like their rights are being trampled upon.

If other KD monarch doesn't have time for leadership, give the leadership to someone else from his/her KD, at least at the initial stage when both KDs have just merged. It's important that people from both KDs feel included in the merged set up. Later on after people have gotten to know each other better and trust each other, then leadership can be tweaked based on capability of the people and the time available to them.

Also, don't expect immediate success from the merged KD. It can take time to gel with each other, understand each other's viewpoints and incorporate them into the running of the KD. Communication is also important. People should know what is the goal of the KD, why certain things are being done and so on. This way people will understand what is expected of them and in the long run, you won't have to micromanage so much. People will be able to take decisions on their own based on their understanding of the KD goals and whether their actions will affect the KD positively or negatively.

My views pertain to middle-tier KD mergers as I've gone through one merger and can understand the challenges involved with this. Thought process could be different for upper-tier KDs as their goals could be different.

[Yadda9To5]

While it's true leadership should be compatible, it should not be a major factor. Ghetto's have one thing in common: no skilled leadership. Unfortunately reality is different.

Things go well as long as leadership realises it's lacking as much as their players (exceptions are possible, though rare). More ofte than not they don't see it this way (unfortunately this happens mostly in ghettos where leaders are as clueless as the other players) their point of view is that players under perform, thus they merge to get better players (not better leaders). To make matters worse, they see/play the provinces in their kd are resources (which would be managable if they were willing to realize they manage their resources wrong). Then mergers spectacularly fail because of "leaders". Merged provs for some mysterious reason support their old leaders even if they underperform or not perform at all, most provinces are willing to give new leadership a chance, but only when old leadership supports it as well. And then friction happens, cause new leadership will do things different, old leadership is too proud to watch from the sideline, starts to intervene, good players will see things change for the worse and leave as they don't have ties to the new kd with all those new players.

So unfortunately, the best way to get a sucessfull merger is to merge only the peons and not leadership. (Leadership transition is similar, if a kd gets new leadership, old should really shut up for an age and never speak up publicly)

Leadership/monarchy really is a difficult thing in utopia, and if utopia is to grow again i think it should somehow be more automated (not sure how really) as most people with knowledge of the game don't want to lead, realizing how intense it is, and in ghetto's (which is the place newbies land) leadership is so terribad that new players get the worst possible first impression of the game.

[Goodwitch]

I may be wrong but I think he is talking about the forced mergers not chosen ones.
In our case something odd happened and instead of a merger I got 7 random players to fill to 25 beginning of age. That's a lot to deal with all at once for a leader. Same goes for the forced mergers. Maybe they should suggest mergers instead of forcing them, giving an opportunity to talk during freeze between the kingdoms/random players. But that's something for the suggestion forum I guess more than strategy.

[Yadda9To5]

I may be wrong but I think he is talking about the forced mergers not chosen ones.
In our case something odd happened and instead of a merger I got 7 random players to fill to 25 beginning of age. That's a lot to deal with all at once for a leader. Same goes for the forced mergers. Maybe they should suggest mergers instead of forcing them, giving an opportunity to talk during freeze between the kingdoms/random players. But that's something for the suggestion forum I guess more than strategy.

You're right, and forced mergers only make the leadership clash worse.

It's no easy problem, utopia works by having kds with the same number of players. Letting a kd start with much fewer provinces sets the kingdom up for failure (unless the kd plays to game the system like the current 5 player kds).

[Wolfric]

I may be wrong but I think he is talking about the forced mergers not chosen ones.
In our case something odd happened and instead of a merger I got 7 random players to fill to 25 beginning of age. That's a lot to deal with all at once for a leader. Same goes for the forced mergers. Maybe they should suggest mergers instead of forcing them, giving an opportunity to talk during freeze between the kingdoms/random players. But that's something for the suggestion forum I guess more than strategy.

Yes, I meant forced mergers, I didn't really have any solution for dealing with it so didn't post in suggestions as some might say it's a strategy problem in that the monarch and the rest of the kingdom requires skill/experienced to make it work so there's no problem with forced mergers dealing with handful of players left over at the eoa!

The only suggestion I've seen which I dislike is reducing kingdom sizes.

[s0830887]

You could consider actively speaking to KDs about a merge instead of just being randomly merged with a KD that you don't know?

This isn't a direct criticism of you, but rather an observation about a lack of initiative I feel exists within maybe lower-level KDs in the game. I have merged my KD with another once about 18 months ago, when my core 15 + 7 inactives warred another KD who seemed to have about 12 active and the rest was fat that needed cut off. I messaged all their LS, organised an IRC date, talked to them all about a merge, discussed what we wanted and how we could accomodate one another, and assured them it would be a merge and not us absorbing them. I made their mon my stew for the age so they were as involved in LS as I was, and things were exceptionally smooth.

At the moment, I have about 15 quality players again with another 7-8 fat that needs cut off. I am actively speaking to the mon of a KD I have known for a while about merging our two cores together. I am approaching it in exactly the same way as before; being completely open and honest about our limitations and what we want from the game, making sure they feel the same and are on the same page, and not trying to trick them into a merge that will ultimately leave both sets of players unhappy. I have asked one of them to run steward again, and am hoping to get several of their guys involved in LS. Why merge if not to strengthen? And why strengthen if to ignore new blood and ideas?

I think as long as you go into it genuine and honest about your expectations and limitations, then things tend to work out. It takes some time to work out the kinks, and everyone needs to be onboard to make that work. It'll take a full age to really feel like your KD is successful. But the only way is up.

Go for it. Reach out. Actively seek that opportunity. Otherwise, you will be forced into a merge you don't want, it'll fall apart, and you'll be frustrated by the process. Take the initiative and control the process, rather than being a jellyfish floating with the tide and being disappointed with where you end up.

[Paradise]

We merged with a random 0/5 kd many many ages back when both had 10+ players. It is still going quite well till now :). The blending process required some time and effort, but eventually it would become great if everyone has a common goal. That's why discussion before merging is very important.