Bounce Waving Fundamentals

[Cabo87]

Recently we received a couple of bounce waves from a kingdom in hostile, while this was not unexpected what was slightly confounding was our retaliatory bounce wave netted far lower losses on our opponents than theirs did. Some points of clarification:

• Kingdom net worth was roughly the same between the two of us.
• Our kingdom was in normal stance, theirs was fortified.
• Our kill average was roughly 5-700 troops per bounce, theirs ranged upwards toward 12-1500 kills on average.
• Troop totals on provinces bounced from both sides were roughly similar (I do not have exact numbers).

I realize that we were fundamentally doing something incorrectly in this process and am just seeking some guidance on what some of the issues may have been to show such a disparity in numbers. It proved to be fruitless on both sides as no TMs were dropped in war by them, but certainly threw a wrench in our planning and tactic.

[s0830887]

Dspecs die at a much higher rate than elites. So maybe they were bouncing your provs with dspec def (elves, for example) while you were bouncing their elite-def provs (halflings/faeries)?

Pitfalls? Bribe Generals? Race bonuses (aka, Orc +kills)? Bloodlust?

[Cabo87]

Good points, and further clarification:

Both sides had PF and BG up on target provinces, they were bouncing our faeries (100% elite base mi;litary) and we were bouncing and elf (largely dspec) and halfer (largely elite).

We were using largely an undead base to bounce, they were using solely avian base to bounce.

[Bananamancer2000]

Elf has -35% losses. Avians have bloodlust. Did you survey for hospitals?

My understanding is that losses are irrelevant of troop comp. You were bouncing with razes? Also, it depends how much offense is being sent vs defense met.

Is one Kingdom in agro, both? Is one side adding hours?

[Cabo87]

Surveys were done, no hospitals on either side. I can understand the elf with diminished defensive losses built in (sadly your statement was an epiphany just now, I swear I am not a total noob ;)) and bloodlust on avians will have to be assumed to be used on their side, but surely that wouldn't make troop loss nearly triple what ours were bringing in. Bounces on our side were all razes, sending a range (in an attempt to figure out what was a best fit) from 30-50% of opposing defense at home. No hours were added either side, our kingdom in normal, theirs in fort.

Appreciate the feedback this far!

[s0830887]

How many soldiers? Soldier casualty rate is extremely high. If you guys were sitting on a soldier stack, even just a couple k, then it would perhaps increase casualties by the amount you're talking about!

[Cabo87]

Soldier count is not something I can speak to with any certainty. We were trained and ready for war when we hopped out of fort so soldier count theoretically should have been relatively low across the board let alone TMs. Def drop on our TMs though would indicate that it wasn't largely soldier based as the two provs were taken from roughly 730k def to 450k def in one wave each.

That being said it is something I will look in to to see as it may play a role in what occurred.

[Bananamancer2000]

Base losses are 5% on defense. Losses from bounce razes are going to be 0.8*0.05*(offense sent/defense met)*hosps*BL*elf losses*hours*PF*BG*troop count. Unit comp shouldn't matter, losses should be relative to # of troops.

Things that will effect losses are defensive military efficiency. If you have 500k def from 10k troops, and 500k def from 15k troops. The 15k troops will lose 50% more.
How much offense is being sent. If they are bouncing by sending 90% offense and you are bouncing sending 50% offense, they're going to be killing more.
Gens. In theory sending bounces in 1 big attack with all gens should net more kills than bouncing with multiple gens.

[Bo To]

I think they were sending more offence. Did you take soms to see how much off they were sending?

In my last war conqs with 50% off, pf and bg on(don't know about BL) were doing 1.6-1.8% dmg which was basically nothing. IMO bounces are fine only when done on one particular prov.

[AquaSeaFoam]

attack type (raze)
+h/-h?
hospitals/BE
pf/bg/bl/elf/etc
mod offense sent

[CannaWhoopazz]

It looks like the ratio of offense sent:target defense is probably playing the biggest role. If neither kingdom has hosps, and neither kingdom is adding/subtracting hours, and both kingdoms are doing pf/bg and razes, then I would assume that they're sending a higher ratio of offense:defense than you are.

Granted, you guys hitting Elves with UD will result in much less kills than them hitting Faes with Avians, due to -losses on elf, and +losses on Avians' BL.