Concerns About the Change to Sitting

[Pillz]

So you can't come up with an in game benefit. You attempted a strawman argument likely because you want to be outraged but can present a case because you don't understand. You're adding nothing to this discussion and only diluting an actual conversation.



KD had the option to have all provinces show up for $0 and make their hits. That is not an unfair advantage. Every kingdom has the same options to be online and play the game. Paying does not give your province any added in game benefits compared to a province that spends $0 and is just online on their own. You don't get any extra gold, resources, or generals.

Invites aren't p2w in your mind? A player abandons a prov you can't fill it without an invite, thats p2w (to you).

KD has the option to put in the real world cost of having everyone online or pay money so they don't all have to play the game.

P2w

You're trying to emulate korp?

[Thunder TA]

BoH since you cant understand the benefits that even ray charles can see i dont know how to help you.Its been made clear multiple times by multiple people.

ColdHearted:

Its doesnt matter where people play. A bad implement is a bad implement. Sofar the only ones crying about how good it is are the few who will benefit from it by doing the same thing the game has always tried to stop .

[Band of Horses]

KD has the option to put in the real world cost of having everyone online or pay money so they don't all have to play the game.

P2w

You're trying to emulate korp?

You literally just did a proof for why it's not p2w. You can play the game (have the players online to attack) or you can pay to be lazy and not be there for the wave. Out of game cost for out of game benefit.

BoH since you cant understand the benefits that even ray charles can see i dont know how to help you.Its been made clear multiple times by multiple people.

ColdHearted:

Its doesnt matter where people play. A bad implement is a bad implement. Sofar the only ones crying about how good it is are the few who will benefit from it by doing the same thing the game has always tried to stop .

It's so easy to see that ray charles can see it but you can't give a single in game advantage. lmfao

[Pillz]

You literally just did a proof for why it's not p2w. You can play the game (have the players online to attack) or you can pay to be lazy and not be there for the wave. Out of game cost for out of game benefit.



It's so easy to see that ray charles can see it but you can't give a single in game advantage. lmfao

No. It is not out of game cost for out of game benefit. The out of game benefit does not factor in. If RL prevents you from playing Utopia, the assumption should not be that paying to take time off helps your RL predicament. You are under no obligation to log in and miss sleep or a meeting or exam. The default state of us as human beings is not to be playing Utopia, it's to live our lives. Playing Utopia is secondary (Inb4 no it isn't).

Accordingly, you are paying real money in order for your province to be played without you investing the time.

If you have an army coming home and someone sitting you sends it out, that benefits you Ingame.
If you have to aid a kd mate and someone sitting you send the aid, that benefits you Ingame.
If you're a bank you can't login for a few important hours and someone sitting you does so, that benefits you Ingame.

The examples are endless and the core of it is this: if sitting benefits you Ingame prior to the change, it benefits you infinitely more as a kingdom after the change because it allows for increased flexibility of its application.

Your argument comes form the wrong direction entirely, and you plainly ignore the many possible scenarios in which sitting can help your performance and that of your kingdom Ingame.

Post under korp when you're being intentionally obtuse.

[Verminator]

See the post I just made. (I realize this can get a bit confusing since I write a reply and you guys reply to a different post while I respond)

Maybe you should post less then.

[Verminator]

It's so easy to see that ray charles can see it but you can't give a single in game advantage. lmfao

While you're busy putting your ass back on, I'll try to bring you into the world of the average player.

Scenario A!

Player A is an attacker. They make attacks at Day 12 and then go to sleep. From Day 12 to Day 20, Player A's province gets chained and they are not present to mitigate the losses. They cannot

a) ask for gold to pay wages (possibly mitigated by kingdom mate awareness but not a guarantee)

b) release military and aid it out (benefits the kingdom) or dragon slay with it (benefits the kingdom) to avoid the alternative which is desertion into the ether (does not benefit anyone)

c) maybe steal runes to Land Lust some acres back during the chain, use up stealth maybe on intel before their thieves go on strike, small things that help the process of being chained not totally suck


Player A wakes up on Day 20 and finds their province unpaid and unable to attack for another tic, military efficiency down from unpaid military, countless military units deserted overnight instead of sent to benefit the kingdom, heck maybe even lost to starvation if that randomly started to happen. Well damn.


Scenario B!

Player A is an attacker. They make attacks at Day 12, set Player B to sit their province, and then go to sleep. From Day 12 to Day 20, Player A's province gets chained. Player B is watching the province however, so they are able to avoid heavy desertion by sending excess military units to slay the dragon every few hours. They mitigate the sharp drop in net gold profit by stealing some gold before their thieves go on strike, also ask for some aid to keep the province paid over the next few hours. They even get some food to avoid starvation.

Player A wakes up and takes control of their province. They find no drop in military efficiency from unpaid wages and minimal losses to desertion because Player B was able to mitigate the overpop with action. They even still have food and can attack that tic. The chain is nothing but a blip on the radar for this player.



So then bandito, I eagerly await your twisty tied wording attempts to turn this into not actually a benefit...

[Band of Horses]

No. It is not out of game cost for out of game benefit. The out of game benefit does not factor in. If RL prevents you from playing Utopia, the assumption should not be that paying to take time off helps your RL predicament. You are under no obligation to log in and miss sleep or a meeting or exam. The default state of us as human beings is not to be playing Utopia, it's to live our lives. Playing Utopia is secondary (Inb4 no it isn't).

Accordingly, you are paying real money in order for your province to be played without you investing the time.

If you have an army coming home and someone sitting you sends it out, that benefits you Ingame.
If you have to aid a kd mate and someone sitting you send the aid, that benefits you Ingame.
If you're a bank you can't login for a few important hours and someone sitting you does so, that benefits you Ingame.

The examples are endless and the core of it is this: if sitting benefits you Ingame prior to the change, it benefits you infinitely more as a kingdom after the change because it allows for increased flexibility of its application.

Your argument comes form the wrong direction entirely, and you plainly ignore the many possible scenarios in which sitting can help your performance and that of your kingdom Ingame.

Post under korp when you're being intentionally obtuse.

All of your examples infer that it is impossible for someone to play utopia no matter what, and that impossibility is an inevitability for everyone. Thus anyone that pays to overcome this has an unfair advantage. If the game locked you out for 8 hours of the day and you could pay to bypass it, that would be p2w. If circumstances outside the game make you choose between the game and real life, that is an out of game benefit since your opportunity cost for being there is real life, now you have an option of paying $1 so you can go to do your real life chit.

While you're busy putting your ass back on, I'll try to bring you into the world of the average player.

Scenario A!

Player A is an attacker. They make attacks at Day 12 and then go to sleep. From Day 12 to Day 20, Player A's province gets chained and they are not present to mitigate the losses. They cannot

a) ask for gold to pay wages (possibly mitigated by kingdom mate awareness but not a guarantee)

b) release military and aid it out (benefits the kingdom) or dragon slay with it (benefits the kingdom) to avoid the alternative which is desertion into the ether (does not benefit anyone)

c) maybe steal runes to Land Lust some acres back during the chain, use up stealth maybe on intel before their thieves go on strike, small things that help the process of being chained not totally suck


Player A wakes up on Day 20 and finds their province unpaid and unable to attack for another tic, military efficiency down from unpaid military, countless military units deserted overnight instead of sent to benefit the kingdom, heck maybe even lost to starvation if that randomly started to happen. Well damn.


Scenario B!

Player A is an attacker. They make attacks at Day 12, set Player B to sit their province, and then go to sleep. From Day 12 to Day 20, Player A's province gets chained. Player B is watching the province however, so they are able to avoid heavy desertion by sending excess military units to slay the dragon every few hours. They mitigate the sharp drop in net gold profit by stealing some gold before their thieves go on strike, also ask for some aid to keep the province paid over the next few hours. They even get some food to avoid starvation.

Player A wakes up and takes control of their province. They find no drop in military efficiency from unpaid wages and minimal losses to desertion because Player B was able to mitigate the overpop with action. They even still have food and can attack that tic. The chain is nothing but a blip on the radar for this player.



So then bandito, I eagerly await your twisty tied wording attempts to turn this into not actually a benefit...

Pay 2 win implies that you have an unfair advantage. This is not unfair since there are no ingame items or DLC. The sitter gets no extra tools, it is sill a person behind a keyboard playing by the same rules as if the owner was there.

If I am Player A in Scenario A, and you are Player A in Scenario B. If I decide to sleep the full night or if I decide to wake up and check ticks during the night, that is fully up to me and allowed. If I decide to stay up for 24hrs straight, checking my prov and micromanaging what UNFAIR advantage do you in Scenario B have over me? What did I give up? Sleep. I could have paid $1 to sleep. That's not an ingame advantage.




Will people use it? Hell yeah. Can people compete without it? Hell yeah. It's like complaining that munk's auto fill offense is p2w. Or munkbot and stinger in general. They benefit you if you have it and the other kingdom does not. Making the game less time consuming is a great thing for maintaining player base.

[octobrev]

If Player B is just sitting there in either scenario, why in Scenario A doesn't he call Player A? You can't really attribute the difference to sitting. Player B is just a serious asshole.

[Goodwitch]

The game is played by real people. A lot of real people have jobs that don't allow them to access utopia at random times while at work. Just because they have a job does not make them less committed. Why would you want to punish someone for being a productive member to society?

And as far as taking an advantage away...sure it does that. I guess you will have to actually be a better strategist then instead of preying on involuntary inactivity.

This change, other than the abuse that was already possible before, really equalizes outside circumstances making competition tighter and harder. Wars will be determined by game skill rather than by who can spend most time online.

[Coffee]

Ehh. There've been a gazillion times I've wished I had the option to set sitter for a couple of hours; I'm opposed to the actual implementation of the feature unless it is accompanied by one or more limitations:

- a reduction to the maximum number of provinces that can be sat per kingdom (not preferred)
- a "cooldown" time between sits for the sat prov (would probably have to be accompanied by the ability to extend sitting whilst still active)
- a maximum to the number of times an individual player can use a short term (less than 24h) sit further to the existing sitting cap (or a 1h sit should count as a full day for the purposes of the sitting cap, if that's not already how it would work which I'm unclear on)

I can see the appeal to better allowing people to balance Uto and RL but I don't think that should mean that kingdoms can essentially pay to have all their provinces online 24/7 in wars. Like yes, you can do that for free but realistically it doesn't happen because the RL costs are too great, being able to pay for sitting by the hour makes it a lot easier as long as you've got a decent timezone/schedule spread in your KD. So the limitations I suggest would be geared at making this something to be used when unexpected stuff comes up, not just so someone else can play your prov every night while you're asleep. Which does feel p2w for me for the reasons outlined by Steel and others.

[brickwolfman]

If I am not mistaken max days to sit is still 21? so if the system was changed to where sitting is linked to the province and not the user that would fix abuse for the most part. Until then maybe we should just hope people won't abuse it. Yes, I know some will, and we all know who too. But for the vast majority it's a great change that will make playing a lot easier for example if you planned your return time and then your boss tells you you are working overtime, or if your kingdom is planning a wave exactly when you are in surgery etc
And maybe the devs can keep a close eye out for those that like to abuse game mechanics ;) cause they know who that is too and hand out penalties more freely.

Best way to stop/prevent abuse of this is to link it to both the province and the user account.

I take it if you set sitter for 2 hours and cancel that will still count as 1 full day in terms of the 21 day limit?

[drkzeraga]

@Band of Horses
Hypothetically if I were sell a bot that can play your province for only $1 a night, will you still considered it as not P2W?
Because by your argument I'm still only trading real world currency ($1) for real world benefit (sleep).
In fact why stop only at night? Why not let the bot run my province 24 hrs a day, up to 21 days an age?

Your argument might sounds reasonable at first glance, but in fact its just a slippery slope towards real money trading.
Just like how you could save time farming loots by buying them using cash, you too can save time not sleeping by paying someone to sit your province instead.

So let's not pretend that this isn't an improvement to an already p2w feature of the game.

[Bishop]

Best way to stop/prevent abuse of this is to link it to both the province and the user account.

I take it if you set sitter for 2 hours and cancel that will still count as 1 full day in terms of the 21 day limit?

Yes.

[Korp]

The game is played by real people. A lot of real people have jobs that don't allow them to access utopia at random times while at work. Just because they have a job does not make them less committed. Why would you want to punish someone for being a productive member to society?

And as far as taking an advantage away...sure it does that. I guess you will have to actually be a better strategist then instead of preying on involuntary inactivity.

This change, other than the abuse that was already possible before, really equalizes outside circumstances making competition tighter and harder. Wars will be determined by game skill rather than by who can spend most time online.

People that are comitted would fiit their schedule so they can attack, none comitted people would chose this option. People that invest more time into this game should rewarded, people that dont invest enough time or cant shouldnt given a helping hand so they can play on the same level.

[CCanes420]

I'm confused as to why there's even a debate over this feature being P2W or not... Fairly delusional to act as if sitting wasn't already P2W in the first place.

I agree with Coffee that there needs to be a certain amount of limitations on it. I think the reduction to max provs per KD at a given time is very needed. The amount that this can be abused in its current state is pathetic.