Elf/heretic

[Relswick8619]

+10% pop is good when you get sci and honor. If you don't it's not actually that big advantage. The bonus tpa won't save you from aw and the -wpa from MF will make fbs easier(fb/ms on elf/h without aw is hard).

Well I will see will use my extra pop for higher wpa, and if I have to will expose thieves on Aw run, either way will be 2nd best thief in game. Plus I can keep high tpa and wpa easily with no deaths. The Aw will be threat but rogue was nerfed some so well see there too I guess. I have options tho if I had to I could prob tie up a couple thieves or mages for a bit with expose thief or sab wiz/rune steals. I have found in pass one decent or better rogue can control at least 2 mages some with rune steals. Also as a t/m should of course have good sci and honor, plan on high op rates along with 24/7 revelation

[Relswick8619]

Plus a half rogue can even easier aw a e/h even with clear sight will have inferior thief then half/h with plus 40 tpa

[Bo To]

Plus a half rogue can even easier aw a e/h even with clear sight will have inferior thief then half/h with plus 40 tpa

I have the feeling you never played rogue... CS is the most OP spell in the game. CS + 10-15% wts(depending on the BE) and the fail rate is 90%+. CS >> tpa always. It's like saying tds(giving def tpa) are better than wts for def. And as I said - you lose off potential with halfer.

EDIT: the point of heretic is to be hard to op/attack/spelled. But it's not supposed to be good at any of the roles. ET is not permanent dmg. And you won't have high wpa because your wizz don't die on failed spells.

[Relswick8619]

I have the feeling you never played rogue... CS is the most OP spell in the game. CS + 10-15% wts(depending on the BE) and the fail rate is 90%+. CS >> tpa always. It's like saying tds(giving def tpa) are better than wts for def. And as I said - you lose off potential with halfer.

EDIT: the point of heretic is to be hard to op/attack/spelled. But it's not supposed to be good at any of the roles. ET is not permanent dmg. And you won't have high wpa because your wizz don't die on failed spells.

I ve played rogue at least 12 to 15 times, starter to think u haven't tho. CS is good but no way it's more effective then 40 tpa lol. Also gas a rogue I never ever ran wts lol, now I could see a heretic maybe needing too but I certainly wouldn't as a rogue run wts when I ran rogue my tpa plus bout 24 tds was plenty thief defense. I guess I am talking playing heretic, but still no way cs is better then 40 tpa bonus

[Relswick8619]

I did look further at cs as I have just played last 2 ages first time in bout year and half and the 25% fail is nice I'll grant on def side, but I never played rogue or pseudo rogue to be turtle def type, plus 40 tpa along with 20 to 25 % tds and keeping high raw tpa will be plenty of defense and certainly better offensive thieving then the elf as cs only helps on def. When I played rogue defensive rogues were never as effective, now that could have changed but still not a playing forgot to add yes u are supposed to op as a heretic also why else give no death on ops and 10 bonus to both op and spell dmg, I'm starting think your the turtle type player where I like being active offensively, to each his own I think your looking for def o kill tho imo.

[Relswick8619]

Also I think elf heretic is a waste on mage side heretics don't get near the good spells mystics do, snd I could always fb on just about any type of prov, nm is little hare but I'm sure on the hitters I'll primarily be casting on will be easy targets for my heretic. Elf I see as good for the offense with 9/7 leet but otherwise wasteful overkill on wpa u really only need as mystic and primarily defensive thieving which like I said I find as lame way to waste rogue like talent, like I said halfer much better offensive thief.

[Bo To]

Please provide build in which h/e gets 40+ mod tpa.

[Relswick8619]

Halfling heretic gets plus 40 from just being halfling they have plus 40% tpa bonus.

[Relswick8619]

Please provide build in which h/e gets 40+ mod tpa.

O nm I see what your saying
5 to 7 raw tpa for much of age, along with 22 to 24 % tds, and max or close to max thief sci, along with plus 20 heretic bonus sci, and plus 40 tpa from halfer bonus should put u in a territory higher then any thief but half rogue. They are better rogue especially offensively then every thief besides half rogue. What thief would have better thief offense besides half rogue may I ask and why? Also it could take more then 7 raw by end of age however ops were made easier this age so I doubt it. It may not be 40 mod, but it doesn't have to half rogue levels just better then rest which it is, in my experience thieves are most effective when opping and controlling attackers and mages as those are usually what is faced mostly in war... opping back aND forth with other thieves is waste imo. Only time I op other rogue is with mass gold, and even then half heretic can do that with just some xtra fails but no thief death so not too bad for something u don't need to do much

[Bo To]

With 24% tds at 80% be you have 43.7% bonus tpa.
7 * 1.437 * 2.2 * 1.4 = 30.98 - not even close to 40+.

Even with the max 75% you will have max 37.

Dw/r with 150% be and 13 % tds has +70% tpa:
9 * 1.7 * 2.5 = 38.25

Note: I'm not counting any honor benefits.

If you want to do ops just go rogue. What you want is like playing orc/mystic.

[Relswick8619]

With 24% tds at 80% be you have 43.7% bonus tpa.
7 * 1.437 * 2.2 * 1.4 = 30.98 - not even close to 40+.

Even with the max 75% you will have max 37.

Dw/r with 150% be and 13 % tds has +70% tpa:
9 * 1.7 * 2.75 = 42.075

Note: I'm not counting any honor benefits.

If you want to do ops just go rogue. What you want is like playing orc/mystic.

Again that's another rogue, half heretic is better thief then any non rogue and better then some non half rogues. Also if I'm not mistaken u didn't factor in 20% sci bonus from heretic for mod tpa, or perhaps u did with 2.2 u also fail to mention plus 10% op dmg which doesn't effect tpa. Also by mid age the halflings extra pop will allow me tin run extra raw tpa if needed perhaps 8 later in age, but again prolly not necessary as I'll be using my stealth mainly on great riots and ns on attackers, and great gold and rune steals on mages and attackers, or i could even do some crazy fb and kidnap runs. It is in no way a comparison to orc mystic lol, I'm not for sure at all how u could even remotely see it that way. By the way u speak a dwarf rogue would be waste too which I don't like to play but u used as an example. Half heretic is best non rogue thief in game, with no magic drawbacks on halfling will be good enough caster to chuck fbs and nm with heretic mage bonus, and then typical moderate tm attacking. I'll grant they made better heretic last age with plus 2 o spec and 15 pop bonus, and I'll grant elf is slightly better heretic at least if u wanna be mage heavy but halfling and dwarf are prolly tied as 2nd best heretic this age.

[Relswick8619]

Like I said in my experience u don't have to be able to op half rogues to be great thief, u just need to be active and able to op hitters and mages which an h/h easily can do and to boot it can spell hitters and rogues. I still can't believe u compared to orc mystic

[Relswick8619]

With 24% tds at 80% be you have 43.7% bonus tpa.
7 * 1.437 * 2.2 * 1.4 = 30.98 - not even close to 40+.

Even with the max 75% you will have max 37.

Dw/r with 150% be and 13 % tds has +70% tpa:
9 * 1.7 * 2.5 = 38.25

Note: I'm not counting any honor benefits.

If you want to do ops just go rogue. What you want is like playing orc/mystic.

Also just noticed dwarf rogue would have plus 2.5 not plus 2.75 rogue was nerfed to 50% sci bonus so should read
Dwarf rogue - 9 * 1.7 * 2.5=38.25

Also noticed u used 9 for the dwarf if I ran 9 as halfer which I could more easily then dwarf with xtra pop it would read
Halfling heretic - 9 * 1.437 * 2.2 * 1.4 = 39.84

So really as I originally said halfling heretic is best rogue in game outside of half rogue

I see u edited from original 2.75 all the same if I ran same raw as dwarf rogue half heretic would be better as u see. 9 wouldn't be needed til late age tho

[Relswick8619]

I have the feeling you never played rogue... CS is the most OP spell in the game. CS + 10-15% wts(depending on the BE) and the fail rate is 90%+. CS >> tpa always. It's like saying tds(giving def tpa) are better than wts for def. And as I said - you lose off potential with halfer.

EDIT: the point of heretic is to be hard to op/attack/spelled. But it's not supposed to be good at any of the roles. ET is not permanent dmg. And you won't have high wpa because your wizz don't die on failed spells.

Also of course tds aren't as good as thief def as wts but if u have enough thieves and tds u plus sci/bonus u don't need wts all the same, wts are for people who don't plan on being well thieves. Half rogue being best thief qualifies for this and half heretic being 2nd best rogue qualifies for this especially with half rogue numbers down some this age.

[s0830887]

Also of course tds aren't as good as thief def as wts but if u have enough thieves and tds u plus sci/bonus u don't need wts all the same, wts are for people who don't plan on being well thieves. Half rogue being best thief qualifies for this and half heretic being 2nd best rogue qualifies for this especially with half rogue numbers down some this age.

What thief is useful if they can't prop or AW? Ns and riots can be done by anyone with 7-8mtpa