Can we talk about IP blocks?

[elixer]

I thought the game did not allow proxies and banned them straight away? Or is that private browsing?

This is something that happened recently as well.

[chadde]

I thought the game did not allow proxies and banned them straight away? Or is that private browsing?

This is something that happened recently as well.

Maybe, not sure. That's not reliable though.

Also, with the IPv4 pools getting depleted ISPs have started putting more and more clients behind large NAT pools and only if you ask for it will they give you a private IP. My point here is that IP block is no longer a realistic, reliable way to ban users. It hasn't been for some years now.

[chadde]

No. But if you're going to purpose changes to the anti-cheating measures you do.

As far as a credit card, I'm pretty sure I can walk into Wal-Mart and buy a credit card under a fake name using cash. So it would just be paying to multi

I'm trying on as many shoes as I can here. But it still doesn't change the fact that IP blocking is an outdated approach that isn't really used any more.

[Diabeticmoose]

just make everyone enter a SSN and whatever they do in other countries for individual proof of person and cross reference it to the database :p

[Goodwitch]

chadde maybe give an example of a better solution would help. I agree with you that IP bans are hard on people trying to recruit new players. I also understand that no one wants to do away with security measures that prevent cheating. So what we need is a workable alternative. You said there are better ways..name some

[chadde]

chadde maybe give an example of a better solution would help. I agree with you that IP bans are hard on people trying to recruit new players. I also understand that no one wants to do away with security measures that prevent cheating. So what we need is a workable alternative. You said there are better ways..name some

The main problem with IP blocking is that it has the potential of harming innocent players. Blocks should happen on an account level instead. Suspicious behaviour of an account should be tracked and a lock put on that account. Not everyone who happens to have the same ISP, same workplace, same university etc. This is how all the major web services do it. If someone spams facebook with porn links their account is blocked, not their IP, because that would be ridiculous.

Then of course people can create a million emails and a million accounts, but if the process is automated and fairly intelligent those accounts would be suspended too.

This is done by adding some intelligence to the process. Instead of saying "If two provs have the same IP within 24 hours they are blocked" it should be saying "prov 1 had the same IP as prov 2 between 1 and 9 hours ago, this pattern repeats every day for the same time, they could work at the same place. If they also log on from different IPs every night we can safely assume that's the case." and "Prov 1 and Prov 2 always log on from the same IP as each other, and usually around the same time so they are probably a multi."

Makes sense?

[Goodwitch]

The main problem with IP blocking is that it has the potential of harming innocent players. Blocks should happen on an account level instead. Suspicious behaviour of an account should be tracked and a lock put on that account. Not everyone who happens to have the same ISP, same workplace, same university etc. This is how all the major web services do it. If someone spams facebook with porn links their account is blocked, not their IP, because that would be ridiculous.

Then of course people can create a million emails and a million accounts, but if the process is automated and fairly intelligent those accounts would be suspended too.

This is done by adding some intelligence to the process. Instead of saying "If two provs have the same IP within 24 hours they are blocked" it should be saying "prov 1 had the same IP as prov 2 between 1 and 9 hours ago, this pattern repeats every day for the same time, they could work at the same place. If they also log on from different IPs every night we can safely assume that's the case." and "Prov 1 and Prov 2 always log on from the same IP as each other, and usually around the same time so they are probably a multi."

Makes sense?

as in hire someone to make these intelligent decisions? or is this achievable with a tool?
if it's manual I don't think it's in the cards. We are talking 3000+ accounts that would need to be monitored. That's a full time job and then some.
If there is such a tool, it would probably depend on how readily available it is and the cost.

[chadde]

as in hire someone to make these intelligent decisions? or is this achievable with a tool?
if it's manual I don't think it's in the cards. We are talking 3000+ accounts that would need to be monitored. That's a full time job and then some.
If there is such a tool, it would probably depend on how readily available it is and the cost.

No no, I mean as in building that logic into the game, same way the IP block is now. It definitely has to be automated.

It's all about logging user behaviour and watching for abnormal data. Most likely there would be automatic triggers that would suspend accounts right away, and probably also grey area triggers that would need a human decision. It would take a little programming but it is achievable.

[Exxo]

This is exactly my point. First thing we do in my KD when we have an empty province is ask if anyone knows somebody who wants it. If this is someone's coworker, family member or student at the same school that means another obstacle to work around. We already have six in my kingdom, it's getting ridiculous.

The game should ENCOURAGE people to play it with friends and family, not actively work against it.

I've raised this exact topic at last EoA, got the very same answers from Palem. While I do understand his reasoning and appreciate his involvement, it would be very nice to get a reply from someone that actually can decide on that stuff.

[Chris121]

I don't know about the coding side but when I found out (on returning to the game) about the current blocking I thought the person telling me had it wrong. He didn't. It's just that the system is very outdated. Free game, fair enough. But Chadde's points about growing the game as valid. Currently I'd be inclined to refuse to allow people in my KD to invite others who live/work with them to play in the same KD as it is too annoying to work around the IP block issue in war. That's not good for the game.

[chadde]

I don't know about the coding side but when I found out (on returning to the game) about the current blocking I thought the person telling me had it wrong. He didn't. It's just that the system is very outdated. Free game, fair enough. But Chadde's points about growing the game as valid. Currently I'd be inclined to refuse to allow people in my KD to invite others who live/work with them to play in the same KD as it is too annoying to work around the IP block issue in war. That's not good for the game.

Exactly. I'm lucky enough to have an understanding king who values playing for fun with people you know. Still it makes us a burden on the kingdom, just like the other married couple we have and the two roommates.

If we want to grow this game we have to come up with a system that encourages people to invite friends and family. Not punish them for doing so.

[octobrev]

I totally feel your pain. Back during the days of the white list, I had my whole family playing in my kingdom (family evidenced below). I don't think I can express in words how difficult it was to let them all go. To this day, my mother still doesn't talk to me.

[Palem]

I can confirm octobro is a small child.

(And before people want to report this for harassment, I'll begrudgingly point out that I am jesting)

[chadde]

I totally feel your pain. Back during the days of the white list, I had my whole family playing in my kingdom (family evidenced below). I don't think I can express in words how difficult it was to let them all go. To this day, my mother still doesn't talk to me.

If you actually read the thread you'll find that nobody wants the whitelist system back and the main point is about attracting new players to the game. Something we should all care about.

[octobrev]

There are a number of great data mining suites out there that would be sufficient to set up decent predictive algorithms. They're drag and drop at this point so any child with a tablet to chew on can do it. The problem is they need good data to train against with historical cheaters definitively noted. Otherwise they'll just learn to ban/delete people that were previously banned/deleted, including the false positives. :(

Such a tool would be great for picking out which players need to be monitored or looked into further though. I'll volunteer myself for the role of Chief Security Officer, providing the forum title is in a nice, royal purple color. Maybe Ben can do some To Catch A Predator podcasts based on the more interesting and high profile cases that occur.