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Thread: Trump brings the US yet another step towards becoming a Bana

  1. #136
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    Well seeing we have two democrats pretending to be republicans in the Senate it doesn't look like any health care bill will get done. It's a damn shame because these premiums are killing me financially. It's amazing how the baby boomers just keep screwing are generation. I pay more then my parents for health insurance. It's just so messed up and wrong in so many ways. Hopefully their is a hell and all the lying politicians go there. God bless Trump a non politician

  2. #137
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    You know what's worse than getting killed financially? Literally dying because you can't afford to go to the doctor

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    You know what's worse than getting killed financially? Literally dying because you can't afford to go to the doctor
    That is a myth any hospital has to treat any patient with a life threatening condition. Plus I am a veteran, VA has to treat me. Insurance has tripled in price in 5 years

  4. #139
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    (Public) Hospitals have to treat emergency situations. If I'm bleeding out and manage to stumble into a hospital, they are required to get me into a stable condition and then they can send me back out.

    This isn't the issue though. Not everyone that is in need of medical treatment is on death's door and just stumbling back into the hospital when you are about to die isn't a how people live healthy lives.

    For instance, let's say Joe has undiagnosed diabetes. Joe has a minimum wage salary so most of the food Joe buys isn't the most healthy of choices. Since he can't afford a quality health insurance, Joe just assumes he's fine. Yea he's pissing a lot and his vision is a little blurry. No reason to run to the emergency room and spend money for a doctor to tell you that you're fine and you should get your eyes checked out. That on top of missing a day of work, which he can't afford to do.

    And now before Joe passes out at work and is taken to the emergency room where they inform him that he's been living with undiagnosed diabetes and some of his organs have been damaged by not getting treatment earlier. So now, instead of going to the doctor when he had some strange symptoms Joe gets to...

    1. Pay for diabetes medications/equipment (that he can't afford)
    2. Pay for medication to help his damaged organs (which he can't afford), or possibly have to find a way to get a couple hundred thousand dollars together to pay for a transplant (which he definitely won't be able to do), and in that case pay for the lifetime of medications needed after the transplant (which he can't afford)
    3. Pay for the Emergency room visit (because they do still bill you for their services)


    So yea, by an unfortunate luck of the genetics draw and not having the benefits of a padded bank account, Joe is going to die and his remaining years are going to be filled with quite a bit of misery. All because you're not happy that your premiums are high.


    But all this to get me to this point. You say people that don't die because they can't afford healthcare and in the same breath, you complain about healthcare costs, so why don't you just stop paying and then just go to the emergency room when you have a problem? Problem solved right?

    Also, thanks for your service.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    That is a myth any hospital has to treat any patient with a life threatening condition. Plus I am a veteran, VA has to treat me. Insurance has tripled in price in 5 years
    Oh they treat... But they still will attempt to get payment afterwards and it's drives the cost up for everyone else.
    Not like the VA has a spotty track record of actually treating people...
    You got your healthcare, screw the people you served to defend right?
    Last edited by Swirvin'Birds; 30-07-2017 at 02:03.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Well seeing we have two democrats pretending to be republicans in the Senate it doesn't look like any health care bill will get done. It's a damn shame because these premiums are killing me financially. It's amazing how the baby boomers just keep screwing are generation. I pay more then my parents for health insurance. It's just so messed up and wrong in so many ways. Hopefully their is a hell and all the lying politicians go there. God bless Trump a non politician
    Tells you something doesn't it. 8 years of *****ing and trying to tear down Obamacare and now that they are on the hook they got nothing... Can't even get their own party on board.
    It was 3 Republicans putting the people over the party. Thank god.
    You talk about lying politicians going to hell and then god bless Trump who IS a lying politician... Crazy.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    That is a myth any hospital has to treat any patient with a life threatening condition.
    Yes but only if it's life threatening, and letting people suffering from serious illness go untreated until it becomes life threatening is tantamount to torture.

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Plus I am a veteran, VA has to treat me.
    Oh so you're just a massive hypocrite then, you're against a single payer system healthcare system and yet you willingly benefits from one... So basically you admit that you have absolutely zero moral fiber! Or do you want to kill off the VA as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Insurance has tripled in price in 5 years
    Which you don't have to give a **** about because you're already covered by a single payer healthcare system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    But all this to get me to this point. You say people that don't die because they can't afford healthcare and in the same breath, you complain about healthcare costs, so why don't you just stop paying and then just go to the emergency room when you have a problem? Problem solved right?
    Because he doesn't care, he's already covered by a less than universal single payer healthcare system.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 31-07-2017 at 17:05.
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  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    Yes but only if it's life threatening, and letting people suffering from serious illness go untreated until it becomes life threatening is tantamount to torture.


    Oh so you're just a massive hypocrite then, you're against a single payer system healthcare system and yet you willingly benefits from one... So basically you admit that you have absolutely zero moral fiber! Or do you want to kill off the VA as well?


    Which you don't have to give a **** about because you're already covered by a single payer healthcare system.


    Because he doesn't care, he's already covered by a less than universal single payer healthcare system.
    I never said I didn't like a single payer system. I just said it will never work in the USA due to various factors. VA still charges you for services unless they are service related injures. VA is a perfect example of how terrible the government is at healthcare though. Only people that go to the VA are extremely disabled, terminally ill or homeless people. Us vets with money and not disabled or sick avoid the VA like the plague. Plus nearest facility is a hour and half drive. But they can not turn me away but I will be charged for anything not service related.

    Yes our insurance went from 200 dollars with a 2500 deductible to 600 a month with a 5k deductible thanks to Obama care. That's 4800 dollars a year less going into savings or investment if I never even use it. You figure that out over a life time and you will see exactly why millinials are struggling. Oh also even after I reach that 5k deductible I still have a co pay thanks to Obama care.
    Last edited by handofthrawn; 31-07-2017 at 18:46.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    I never said I didn't like a single payer system. I just said it will never work in the USA due to various factors. VA still charges you for services unless they are service related injures. VA is a perfect example of how terrible the government is at healthcare though. Only people that go to the VA are extremely disabled, terminally ill or homeless people. Us vets with money and not disabled or sick avoid the VA like the plague. Plus nearest facility is a hour and half drive. But they can not turn me away but I will be charged for anything not service related.

    Yes our insurance went from 200 dollars with a 2500 deductible to 600 a month with a 5k deductible thanks to Obama care. That's 4800 dollars a year less going into savings or investment if I never even use it. You figure that out over a life time and you will see exactly why millinials are struggling. Oh also even after I reach that 5k deductible I still have a co pay thanks to Obama care.
    Are we so special that we can not do what the rest of the western world can do? Sure we can. We just gotta have the will to do it.
    Actually you can thank republicans for that. They defunded obamacare and let states opt out which raised the costs of coverage. Just because you all call it Obamacare doesn't mean that republicans didn't have a hand in the final result. They most certainly did. 168 republican amendments to the ACA.
    Last edited by Swirvin'Birds; 31-07-2017 at 21:30.

  10. #145
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    So. Is Spicer coming back? :o

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swirvin'Birds View Post
    Are we so special that we can not do what the rest of the western world can do? Sure we can. We just gotta have the will to do it.
    Actually you can thank republicans for that. They defunded obamacare and let states opt out which raised the costs of coverage. Just because you all call it Obamacare doesn't mean that republicans didn't have a hand in the final result. They most certainly did. 168 republican amendments to the ACA.
    1st. We are 20 trillion dollars in debt
    2nd. All medical employees would have to have wages cut, all medical practices would have to be taken over by the government, all pharmicotical companies would either have to be taken over or will be forced to go bankrupt.
    3rd. Part is think of what that would do to our economy? All the lost tax revenue, the mass bankruptcy by people in the medical field.
    4th. Incompetent government can not run a single payer system, let alone set one up.
    5th. Doctor shortages would be massive due to doctors would leave the country to practice else where to keep making their millions.

    Let's recap it would bankrupt the government, millions of health care workers and companies. Including any company involved with medical care. Shortage of trained professionals, long wait times and death panels. Then the effect on tax income, college cost and loss of innovation. Even if you figure all that out in the end the government is too incompetent to run such a system, let alone set it up.

    It's a wonderful dream but let's face facts it will never happen.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    1st. We are 20 trillion dollars in debt
    2nd. All medical employees would have to have wages cut, all medical practices would have to be taken over by the government, all pharmicotical companies would either have to be taken over or will be forced to go bankrupt.
    3rd. Part is think of what that would do to our economy? All the lost tax revenue, the mass bankruptcy by people in the medical field.
    4th. Incompetent government can not run a single payer system, let alone set one up.
    5th. Doctor shortages would be massive due to doctors would leave the country to practice else where to keep making their millions.

    Let's recap it would bankrupt the government, millions of health care workers and companies. Including any company involved with medical care. Shortage of trained professionals, long wait times and death panels. Then the effect on tax income, college cost and loss of innovation. Even if you figure all that out in the end the government is too incompetent to run such a system, let alone set it up.

    It's a wonderful dream but let's face facts it will never happen.
    Yes. Because we don't like to actually pay for **** we do by raising taxes. Instead we push it off on another generation.
    Doctors is Canada average $340k a year and go up or down from there depending on their practice. Sorry WHAT? Lol. Yes, them dirt low salaries are a disgrace are they not? ****, I know doctors here in the US that are not worth that much.
    It only bankrupts the government if we fail to pay for it. Over 1/2 our national budget goes into making war. We have the money, we just choose to waste it in other ways.
    You still need people to do the work yet you act like they will all go bankrupt. Big pharma needs to take a hit. The current healthcare for profit has milked us dry and hooked us on the drugs they push while making a killing.
    The long wait times and death pannels have been proven false scare tactics.
    It will happen one day... Face the facts.
    You do know government isn't always incompetent and the private sector always competent right?
    Last edited by Swirvin'Birds; 31-07-2017 at 23:13.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    2nd. All medical employees would have to have wages cut, all medical practices would have to be taken over by the government, all pharmicotical companies would either have to be taken over or will be forced to go bankrupt.
    This is untrue and unfounded.

    3rd. Part is think of what that would do to our economy? All the lost tax revenue, the mass bankruptcy by people in the medical field.
    Why are medical companies declaring bankruptcies worse than American tax payers having to declare bankruptcy because they got sick?

    4th. Incompetent government can not run a single payer system, let alone set one up.
    If people are doing a bad job, then fire them. There are plenty of government run organizations that run perfectly well.

    5th. Doctor shortages would be massive due to doctors would leave the country to practice else where to keep making their millions.
    This is just laughably false. Doctors in other countries with government provided health care still live very well. There will still be a private medical industry for doctors that want to rake in money from people who have money to throw around.

    But even if your worst nightmare were true, and the US adopted some 100% public health care industry where doctors are living less than mediocre lives, they don't really have anywhere to go. The US has the strongest market in the world. It's not like you can just pack up, move to Mumbai (I'm not sure if India has universal healthcare but I don't think they do), open a small practice and be a millionaire. Most doctors in the US aren't millionaires. They typically have a middle class to upper middle class life style.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    1st. We are 20 trillion dollars in debt
    Per capita that's high but not exceptionally high.
    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    2nd. All medical employees would have to have wages cut, all medical practices would have to be taken over by the government.
    Why? If doctors are earning millions then yes there would probably have to be a decrease of wages and I have absolutely no problem with that. But you're making it sound like it's going to force them into poverty which simply isn't the case. They will still be earning somewhere around high middle class wages as that seems to be the norm in other countries who have done the transition. And no, the government would not have to take over any medical practices, you just institute a government agency which pays a set price for each specific treatment, which is higher than the actual cost by some reasonable margin(so that private practices etc can have some profit margin). And no clinic/hospital whether private or public can charge patients more than that and they'll have to service everybody who comes to their clinic.

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    all pharmicotical companies would either have to be taken over or will be forced to go bankrupt.
    The US already spends more per capita than any other county on the planet does. Yes pharmaceutical prices per dose/device are going to have to come down to similar levels as those of Europe, there is simply no reason why the US should spend more on a dose of medicine than the UK/France/Sweden etc does, if that puts companies at risk of bankruptcy then so be it, they're simply going to have to spread their costs even then.

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    3rd. Part is think of what that would do to our economy? All the lost tax revenue, the mass bankruptcy by people in the medical field.
    Why would there need to be bankruptcy/unemployment in the medical field? Whatever government bureaucracy you put in place of insurance companies is going to need a similar amount of manpower because you're only moving the work around, not eliminating it. And if you loose taxes from insurance companies going away then you can just tax the population directly instead, it's much more costly to have a corporate winnings layer in between than it is to do away with the corporate layer, even if you see some increase of bureaucratic waste from whatever you replace the insurance companies with. You're just doing away with the insurance companies, not the entire medical sector.

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    4th. Incompetent government can not run a single payer system, let alone set one up.
    Why not? Plenty of other countries have succeeded so there is plenty of experience there that the US could lean on.

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    5th. Doctor shortages would be massive due to doctors would leave the country to practice else where to keep making their millions.
    False, no other country on universal healthcare seems to have that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Let's recap it would bankrupt the government, millions of health care workers and companies
    Uhm no, there's no reason that it would. Case in point all the 50 or so other countries with universal healthcare.
    Same thing with healthcare workers. Sure it would put insurance companies out of business but that's the general idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Including any company involved with medical care.
    Uhm no there's no evidence of that
    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Shortage of trained professionals, long wait times and death panels.
    No there's no reason that it would result in any shortage and it's a bloody lie that there would be any "death panels", that's just racist right scaremongering and it's completely baseless.
    Yes it would result in longer wait times because it would result in people currently being denied care actually getting care. So between government sanctioned murder and longer wait times I would choose the longer wait times.
    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Then the effect on tax income, college cost and loss of innovation.
    There's no reason that it would affect tax income as stated before.
    Why would it affect college cost? you've raised no plausible case for that.
    Why would there be any loss of innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    Even if you figure all that out in the end the government is too incompetent to run such a system, let alone set it up.
    Again, there's plenty of evidence that this can be done, many countries have done it before and the US can use their experiences to implement a system.
    Quote Originally Posted by handofthrawn View Post
    It's a wonderful dream but let's face facts it will never happen.
    It's not a dream but as long as bribed and corrupt republicans refuse to put the welfare of their citizens above their greedy corporate puppetmasters it's unlikely to happen.
    But at least there seems to be a few showing signs of having at least some morals and who are willing to look beyond party affiliation.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 02-08-2017 at 00:00.
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  15. #150
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    While I personally find AlladinLad a tedious f*cker to debate with, in this instance he is correct. Universal healthcare is cheaper and has better outcomes than a private system. ( Unless you have the big heap of money to utilise the top end of the private system)

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