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Thread: Land Based Gains

  1. #31
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    I like the sound of wars going for days on in. That's better than sitting around working out some terms and/or worrying about giving relations and all the jazz. Atleast now we are having conversations with completely different elements than the last several ages. Besides I am sure someone out there is crunching numbers and getting excited as they discover formulas that no one else may know.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verminator View Post
    Seeing a lot of uneven results in first war, lots of perks to hitting up. You can get the same gains from hitting very far away from your size but hitting UP, as you can by hitting close to your size but hitting even or down. Even the formula guys in our kingdom are shrugging at this, apparently wars will now go on and on because chaining not only loses steam drastically the longer it goes on, but also doesn't actually keep anyone down unless you sink countless single digit hits into a province to completely bury them. Lots of disgruntled folks not sure how to even adjust to something that makes such little sense as this.

    Did you notice any difference in deep chaining after the latest gain formula hotfix?
    Last edited by Suur; 29-05-2017 at 01:50.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suur View Post
    Did you notice any difference in deep chaining after the latest gain formula hotfix?
    Sorry I missed this earlier - deep chaining was not a priority at that stage of our war, so I couldn't tell you for sure. I do know that hitting up after the hotfix (maybe even before) was much more beneficial than hitting down in the war, so chaining would be naturally harder to accomplish completely with this new formula.

    It's much easier to recover from a chain and much harder to diminish a target's offensive military after maybe the first day of the war. We spent the first day battering provinces down "the old way" even though it was getting us single digit acre gains. We caused military releasing on 2-3 provinces the old fashioned way, before it just became too clear that it was an inefficient use of attacks anymore.

    So we moved on to figuring out how to diminish an attacker's ability via spells or thievery, but nothing about those aspects of the game has changed to compensate for the lack of ability to disable provinces via attacking. You still have no real military-killer op; sure NS can kill specs, but who uses those for the bulk of their offense in the first place? Propaganda is hit or miss and limited in access as usual. Fireballs are fun but those have never stopped a province from keeping all the offense it wants and attacking nonstop. The only thing that ever really stopped a province was deep chaining, and that has been defeated by the new gains formula. So the devs say "find new ways" but give us no new tools to work with.

    Plus, even though spell and op success rates are better, spells are still rune-dependent and runes are still in short supply in early age, so it didn't matter how much easier spells were. Eventually I hope it does matter, but runes are just so damn easy to take from a province that I can't see this new better success rate being a big deal since rune theft and Lightning Strike are equally as easy to achieve.

    Ops are still handily shut down by Watchtowers as always, so a better success rate again has little impact. Add in the fact that Clear Sight is now on two races, plus if those two races are Paladins, you've got Clear Sight all over the place now, there's just no big improvement with the success rate changes. The blocking mechanisms are more present than ever.

    It's like we got a delicious cupcake to eat, but our mouths are now glued shut. That cupcake LOOKS nice, but you'll never actually get to see how it tastes.
    Last edited by Verminator; 01-06-2017 at 00:20.

  4. #34
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    I'm sorry to say but you are just being closed minded. The only solution you've left available based on your stance is for us to provide insight to the strategies that should be used.

    We have given information about our vision for the game. We've spoken with Benjamin on his podcast where we give ideas into our vision and plans. We've spoken on the forums and in other public portals where we've mentioned ideas and visions that if you pay close attention you could come up with new strategies that you haven't touched on in any of your messages.

    You even state in your post that you tried the old strategies and they didn't work. Consider that if you were set up to execute the old strategies that no longer work you probably are not set up to execute the new strategies that will work more effectively? How can you assert that there are no new strategies that work if you're set up to execute the old strategies? In order to be effective you will have to come up with a new strategy and prepare your province and kingdom to make that work. Although all of this is made more difficult given that you don't completely understand how the new formula works, which is not your fault because no one knows. The kingdoms that will prevail this age and probably next age will be the ones that are able to decipher what is working well and what is not and take advantage of the things that work well. Isn't that the whole idea of Utopia anyway? To find a strategy that works well, execute it and win? Now more than ever is this opportunity available to the entire server. Prior to these changes the game was stale, the 'top kds' were always in the top because the strategies for being in the top and having a chance at success were the same as they had been for the past years(??) and everyone knew you either had to do exactly the strategies that were known and execute with perfection or you would just get crushed. Now that those strategies are no longer viable it opens up the top spots for a whole lot more kingdoms as everyone searches and fights their way to figure out what works well and begins to execute those strategies to max advantage.

    Seize the opportunity. We won't be giving out secrets to anyone, no matter who they are or how many credits they buy. Moderators (PersainCAT and ASF) are in the dark just as everyone else, even Bishop does not have access to the code to see just how it works.

    My best advice is if you want to do well you just need to put in the time and dedication. This opportunity has not been seen in Utopia for quite some time, you should be more positive and excited instead of negative and cynical. We see how the gains are working and so far our theories still hold true.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Seize the opportunity. We won't be giving out secrets to anyone, no matter who they are or how many credits they buy. Moderators (PersainCAT and ASF) are in the dark just as everyone else, even Bishop does not have access to the code to see just how it works.
    my kd was bitching about gains in our oop war just like everyone..

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    I'm sorry to say but you are just being closed minded. The only solution you've left available based on your stance is for us to provide insight to the strategies that should be used.

    We have given information about our vision for the game. We've spoken with Benjamin on his podcast where we give ideas into our vision and plans. We've spoken on the forums and in other public portals where we've mentioned ideas and visions that if you pay close attention you could come up with new strategies that you haven't touched on in any of your messages.

    You even state in your post that you tried the old strategies and they didn't work. Consider that if you were set up to execute the old strategies that no longer work you probably are not set up to execute the new strategies that will work more effectively? How can you assert that there are no new strategies that work if you're set up to execute the old strategies? In order to be effective you will have to come up with a new strategy and prepare your province and kingdom to make that work. Although all of this is made more difficult given that you don't completely understand how the new formula works, which is not your fault because no one knows. The kingdoms that will prevail this age and probably next age will be the ones that are able to decipher what is working well and what is not and take advantage of the things that work well. Isn't that the whole idea of Utopia anyway? To find a strategy that works well, execute it and win? Now more than ever is this opportunity available to the entire server. Prior to these changes the game was stale, the 'top kds' were always in the top because the strategies for being in the top and having a chance at success were the same as they had been for the past years(??) and everyone knew you either had to do exactly the strategies that were known and execute with perfection or you would just get crushed. Now that those strategies are no longer viable it opens up the top spots for a whole lot more kingdoms as everyone searches and fights their way to figure out what works well and begins to execute those strategies to max advantage.

    Seize the opportunity. We won't be giving out secrets to anyone, no matter who they are or how many credits they buy. Moderators (PersainCAT and ASF) are in the dark just as everyone else, even Bishop does not have access to the code to see just how it works.

    My best advice is if you want to do well you just need to put in the time and dedication. This opportunity has not been seen in Utopia for quite some time, you should be more positive and excited instead of negative and cynical. We see how the gains are working and so far our theories still hold true.

    I don't mind a strategic shift - in fact I encourage that approach. However, the idea that there is a system out there that is essential to war that nobody knows what it is doesn't make people want to play the game. It frustrates them. Moreover it frustrates the better kds who attempt to employ strategy around the new gains system vs kds that just yolo and seem to gain on a similar level. I wouldn't ask for a 100% explanation, but rather a % ratio that NW and Land (roughly) affect gains - or just examples shown of gains by provs vs other provs and have us figure it out.

    Also the access to beta testing was a bit unfair. It has given certain testers a massive advantage in the age to know precisely what works and what didn't. I feel that really if you're a top 10 or 20 kd you should be granted access to beta testing (at least by invitation). A lot of the time I feel Utopia is very pro European and American players, and forget the large number of players in Asia who are also essential to the Utopia world.
    "Because of the implication"

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeblogs View Post
    I don't mind a strategic shift - in fact I encourage that approach. However, the idea that there is a system out there that is essential to war that nobody knows what it is doesn't make people want to play the game. It frustrates them. Moreover it frustrates the better kds who attempt to employ strategy around the new gains system vs kds that just yolo and seem to gain on a similar level. I wouldn't ask for a 100% explanation, but rather a % ratio that NW and Land (roughly) affect gains - or just examples shown of gains by provs vs other provs and have us figure it out.

    Also the access to beta testing was a bit unfair. It has given certain testers a massive advantage in the age to know precisely what works and what didn't. I feel that really if you're a top 10 or 20 kd you should be granted access to beta testing (at least by invitation). A lot of the time I feel Utopia is very pro European and American players, and forget the large number of players in Asia who are also essential to the Utopia world.
    Anyone can beta test, its open to everyone so how is it unfair? No one on the test server actually used the final revised formula nor were they given info on it.

    If you'd like to be a part of the Utopia Test Team, send an email to test@utopia-game.com or PM DavidC

    Not knowing the formula doesn't frustrate me, i am just hitting in range and working my way up to see where it caps out. A major part of this game is figuring out optimal strategies. There is already a thread made by players to work out the formula, you should consider taking part.
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  8. #38
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    Keeping my reply short:

    I agree with not being close-minded and I personally have no desire to know any formulas and I rarely ever have. David, I thought in my post I was pretty clear that we tried several different strategies after the old style of smash smash smash didn't yield good enough results. I don't think our setup limits our strategy options at all; in fact, I'd say that the person devising the strategies should be capable of using whatever they have in whatever ways possible. (This is exactly why I play Utopia; flexibility of strategy.)

    The problem is that you're asking us to try new strategies with little to no new tools. All the thievery and magic that currently exists is designed to complement the deep chain strategy for attacking. When you tell us deep chaining no longer works, but expect us to use the thievery and magic tools that work best with that very strategy and provide nothing new that can impact a shift in strategic approach, you're again telling a person to enjoy this big delicious cupcake with a glued shut mouth. (I'm really enjoying this metaphor so I think I'll keep using it, plus I hope to make people hungry for no other reason than to exert power over the minds of others. Muahaha.)

    Summarized, the new gains formula and subsequent impact requires different tools in magic and thievery to complement the shift in strategies.
    Last edited by Verminator; 01-06-2017 at 13:19.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verminator View Post
    All the thievery and magic that currently exists is designed to complement the deep chain strategy for attacking.
    That's not true. None of my design for magic or thievery had anything to do with assisting chains.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    In order to be effective you will have to come up with a new strategy and prepare your province and kingdom to make that work... The kingdoms that will prevail this age and probably next age will be the ones that are able to decipher what is working well and what is not and take advantage of the things that work well. Isn't that the whole idea of Utopia anyway? To find a strategy that works well, execute it and win? Now more than ever is this opportunity available to the entire server..
    100% agree. It is a part of utopia I particularly like - thinking about the new mechanics and trying to work out how to adapt to them. Probably yes I would prefer the formula too but only really because I'm used to having it, and I should adapt to this too. If we step back I can't think of a real reason why we should know the gains formula. We don't get told the thievery/magic success rate/damage formulas.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    That's not true. None of my design for magic or thievery had anything to do with assisting chains.
    It doesn't necessarily assist chains, it complements the strategy of deep chaining. It covers other bases WHILE you deep chain certain targets. You are correct in that it does not assist chains at all, basically proving my point. Spells and ops are meant to damage things like economy, sustainability and province stability. Deep chaining is meant to damage things like attacker potency and impact.

    When you have no spells or ops that really do meaningful damage to attacker potency, you are left with the need to deep chain them to impact them significantly in war. That has been taken away with the new gains formula; all well and good, I actually like it after getting used to it. But now you have to resort to finding other ways to reduce attacker potency, nothing of which you can find in spells or ops.

    Let's look at the core of an attacker's impact; their offense. As long as an attacker has generals and offense, they will never stop steadily impacting the war.

    Now, what can you do to an attacker with spells and ops:

    Fireballs? Attackers can still keep attacking and receive gold aid to stay afloat.

    Tornadoes? Too expensive and attackers can still keep attacking and receive gold aid to stay afloat.

    Meteors? Too expensive and easily mitigated by keeping your offense out and away from that damage, so attackers can still keep attacking.

    Night Strikes? Most offenses are mostly elite driven, you're not damaging much offense with this and thus attackers can still keep attacking.

    Arson? See Tornadoes reasoning.

    Steal Warhorses? Keep your horses out and you never lose a single horse, plus this means you are still attacking.

    Propaganda? Too expensive and rarely touches offense, as offense is always out, which btw means you are still attacking.


    Most of these spells and ops, you know what they do? They soften provinces so that they can be CHAINED more easily.

    What has just been removed from the game as a viable strategy to remove the impact of an attacker? CHAINING.

    So I maintain my stance that you have not provided anything new with which to approach the loss of deep chaining.

    You expect us to just Ambush all war to kill offense perhaps? Maybe squat on provinces for the moment their armies get home and hope you catch it? Be realistic, most players are not glued to this game nor will they ever be. You need to provide ways to damage offense, plain and simple.

    Maybe an op or spell that takes a General out of commission for a few hours. Something that kills a bit of offense while it's out on attack. You've steered the game away from deep chaining, so now you need to design things that present themselves as viable alternatives to be used strategically in war.

  12. #42
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    @Verminator

    Current gains system works well with op waves. Remember, it's not always about how many times you can hit a province in the duration of a war.
    Last edited by elixer; 04-06-2017 at 06:39.
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    You just got owned again. When will you learn fool. I'm just on a different level.

  13. #43
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    Smite kills offenses, so does Ambushes, Tornadoes if they use TG's and Bribe Generals if timed when they send out. Same goes if you can chain someone when their army is in, there will be a window for most provinces and just switch to secondary target if your pimary one manage to send out right away.

  14. #44
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    Second war of the age and now it's no longer land based gains? Seriously you changed the formula that much mid age. I mean it's some strange hybrid of nw and land. I can roll with any changes but I have to complain about changing mid age. Anyways it's whatever I guess but to me it should be a nw based system or land based system. Not a mix and that includes opts in my opinion.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearted View Post
    Second war of the age and now it's no longer land based gains? Seriously you changed the formula that much mid age. I mean it's some strange hybrid of nw and land. I can roll with any changes but I have to complain about changing mid age. Anyways it's whatever I guess but to me it should be a nw based system or land based system. Not a mix and that includes opts in my opinion.
    Its not changed.
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