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Thread: Intra-KD Espionage tab

  1. #16
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    Well I'm glad you play in one of those rare kingdoms that still sets alarms and phones players. The game should not cater to you lovely 1%-ers.

    And a support spell tab has absolutely nothing to do with properly chaining a target. It's about making intra-kingdom communication and coordination more manageable and less clunky. You can chain a target easily if they have WS on, the results on the target are the same with or without it.

  2. #17
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    @Elldallan,
    Please realize that the top 5 kingdoms play like that, the other 95 kingdoms dont. So please stop thinking that the entire server is somehow elitist with superb communication.
    I'm in a fairly decent kingdom myself, and even we have trouble coordinating all the self spells. It's a mess trying to coordinate who has what spell expiring when. Especially if people arent online at all times.

    We understand that the top 5 kingdoms are able to coordinate this into perfection and have people online at all times a day and will call them awake whenever needed. I am, however, not suggesting this change for those few kingdoms.
    Regards,

    NighT

  3. #18
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    Sadly the more automated the game becomes the less reasons people even have to log in.

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  4. #19
    Post Demon Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verminator View Post
    Well I'm glad you play in one of those rare kingdoms that still sets alarms and phones players. The game should not cater to you lovely 1%-ers.
    I'm well aware of that and I happen to agree with you, but you posted a question which I answered.
    On the other hand I'm opposed to more intel integration into the game, I feel that leaveing that to 3rd party applications like munkbot is sufficient. If you want to be able to see some self-spells then the next age somebody is going to want to be able to see all spells, and then somebody is going to want access to all intra-kd intel etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verminator View Post
    And a support spell tab has absolutely nothing to do with properly chaining a target. It's about making intra-kingdom communication and coordination more manageable and less clunky. You can chain a target easily if they have WS on, the results on the target are the same with or without it.
    In essence that's true, but in reality it's also something that makes chaining harder by providing that greater communication and coordination.
    And with the recent nerf of chaining as a viable method I think that anything that makes chaining potentially even harder is a bad thing.
    Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  5. #20
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    Monarchs everywhere would love this. It would save time and energy and prevent burn out.
    It could update on log in, or via opt in send. Either way it is much needed.

  6. #21
    Post Demon Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwitch View Post
    Monarchs everywhere would love this.
    I'm sure they would but I don't think the game needs to do more to encourage petty dictators, which a lot of those monarchs would turn into if they were given access to complete surveillance and thus I don't think it's a good direction for the game. Instead I think we should work to provide better third party integration options as they have been doing lately, third party options which I can turn off at my own leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwitch View Post
    It could update on log in, or via opt in send. Either way it is much needed.
    As long as the opt-in send is single use only, ie i actively needs to be pressed by the user every time then I have no real qualms about that other than that I think that this option already exists and is called munkbot.
    Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    I'm sure they would but I don't think the game needs to do more to encourage petty dictators, which a lot of those monarchs would turn into if they were given access to complete surveillance and thus I don't think it's a good direction for the game. Instead I think we should work to provide better third party integration options as they have been doing lately, third party options which I can turn off at my own leisure.
    I disagree its a team based strategy game. By saying you don't want to have an option for everyone in the kingdom to see what you're running, you are really saying you don't want to play as part of the team. Monarchs by and large are making the best team that they know how to make, and they are elected to do so by the at least half the kingdom. "Petty dictators" are not a thing unless its a ghetto kd, and even if it is, with an intra-kd espionage tab it will help organisation and strategy. In the end, should no game should be reliant on third-party tools to function at a higher level. I think actually, petty dictators should be encouraged. They are fledgling leaders, and if they've already gained the support of their kingdom in the form of the vote, shouldn't every method of organisation be made available for them? They may turn from being petty dictators into being decent enough leaders.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    As long as the opt-in send is single use only, ie i actively needs to be pressed by the user every time then I have no real qualms about that other than that I think that this option already exists and is called munkbot.
    Munkbot is a great tool, however support for some of the basic tools inside the game would make organisation easier.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kido View Post
    I disagree its a team based strategy game. By saying you don't want to have an option for everyone in the kingdom to see what you're running, you are really saying you don't want to play as part of the team. Monarchs by and large are making the best team that they know how to make, and they are elected to do so by the at least half the kingdom. "Petty dictators" are not a thing unless its a ghetto kd, and even if it is, with an intra-kd espionage tab it will help organisation and strategy. In the end, should no game should be reliant on third-party tools to function at a higher level. I think actually, petty dictators should be encouraged. They are fledgling leaders, and if they've already gained the support of their kingdom in the form of the vote, shouldn't every method of organisation be made available for them? They may turn from being petty dictators into being decent enough leaders.

    Munkbot is a great tool, however support for some of the basic tools inside the game would make organisation easier.
    I disagree, what I don't want is micromanagement, each player is and should be responsible from their own province and this power should not be moved towards monarch micromanaging everything by giving them access to accurate and instantaneous intel of their kd. There needs to be a trust from the monarch that each province of the kingdom is fighting towards the same goal, they shouldn't need or have access to absolute surveillance in order to run the kingdom. And no I don't agree that petty dictators should be encouraged, they are a scourge and a plague on their players, they don't need 100% access to every niggling detail of their kingdom. If you want that then mandate that everybody use some sort of third party tool, the game itself should not encourage such behaviour.

    If you cannot afford your players the trust to work their own province without absolute surveillance then we might as well be done with it and do away with the other 24 players completely and let every monarch run all 25 provinces directly by themselves, then you can have all the control you want.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    I disagree, what I don't want is micromanagement, each player is and should be responsible from their own province and this power should not be moved towards monarch micromanaging everything by giving them access to accurate and instantaneous intel of their kd. There needs to be a trust from the monarch that each province of the kingdom is fighting towards the same goal, they shouldn't need or have access to absolute surveillance in order to run the kingdom. And no I don't agree that petty dictators should be encouraged, they are a scourge and a plague on their players, they don't need 100% access to every niggling detail of their kingdom. If you want that then mandate that everybody use some sort of third party tool, the game itself should not encourage such behaviour.

    If you cannot afford your players the trust to work their own province without absolute surveillance then we might as well be done with it and do away with the other 24 players completely and let every monarch run all 25 provinces directly by themselves, then you can have all the control you want.
    Imho, perfect intel is trust. Also, bringing up one small and extreme example of a potential misuse doesn't negate the idea. Allowing other kd mates to check resources and return times, and etc. helps organisation and helps your prov survive. Someone can send you food if you're starving. Other similarly sized attackers can line up their attacks to return at the same tick as yours. Allowing other KD mates to learn from your experience in builds. Allowing other kd mates to match the amount of offense and effects you're receiving (like a gs building effect) helps cohesion. Allowing our new support class the ability to check what spells and effects are on your province would assist them in assisting you. I personally think individualism makes wars the game interesting, but i wouldn't say no to an extra organisational tool.

  10. #25
    Forum Addict Bo To's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kido View Post
    Imho, perfect intel is trust. Also, bringing up one small and extreme example of a potential misuse doesn't negate the idea. Allowing other kd mates to check resources and return times, and etc. helps organisation and helps your prov survive. Someone can send you food if you're starving. Other similarly sized attackers can line up their attacks to return at the same tick as yours. Allowing other KD mates to learn from your experience in builds. Allowing other kd mates to match the amount of offense and effects you're receiving (like a gs building effect) helps cohesion. Allowing our new support class the ability to check what spells and effects are on your province would assist them in assisting you. I personally think individualism makes wars the game interesting, but i wouldn't say no to an extra organisational tool.
    What Elldallan wants to say is that backstabing, sabotaging and civil wars should be part of the game. As he said if he has to push a button(which means he will have the ability to change some intel manually and lie or purposefully delay update of his intel) then he will be fine with it :).

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo To View Post
    What Elldallan wants to say is that backstabing, sabotaging and civil wars should be part of the game. As he said if he has to push a button(which means he will have the ability to change some intel manually and lie or purposefully delay update of his intel) then he will be fine with it :).
    think it should be an opt out option now that I think about it. If someone wants to be a pain in the behind to their kingdom at the very least they should have to work for it :P

  12. #27
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    If they are still on the game friendly for new people ways then having everything ingame is the best way for new people. Game, Guide, a working chat and intel features.

    Everyone here knows how hard it is and has always been to get new people to use outside stuff to play.Going back to when we used AvidGamers for sites, Angel for everything else and ICQ for communicating. Its always been the same.

    If your going to make it friendly for new people to join ,learn and play then you have to have it ingame.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder TA View Post
    If they are still on the game friendly for new people ways then having everything ingame is the best way for new people. Game, Guide, a working chat and intel features.

    Everyone here knows how hard it is and has always been to get new people to use outside stuff to play.Going back to when we used AvidGamers for sites, Angel for everything else and ICQ for communicating. Its always been the same.

    If your going to make it friendly for new people to join ,learn and play then you have to have it ingame.
    ^This. Yes, third party apps are great, but you're far more likely to retain players the more convenient things are. I.e. everything in one place. For those who don't want the auto-update - make it optional with a button to manually update and/or make it a premium feature to get a bit of money flowing into the game as well. I'd be more than willing to pay a few $/age for integrated intel.
    Retired at one time but no longer retired.

  14. #29
    Post Demon Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kido View Post
    Imho, perfect intel is trust.
    If it's completely voluntary and comes without any sort of expectations or obligations then yes. But if it's mandatory it's just another tool of oppression and should never be implemented in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kido View Post
    Also, bringing up one small and extreme example of a potential misuse doesn't negate the idea.
    I consider it to be neither a small, nor an extreme example but rather systemic and pervasive like a cancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo To View Post
    What Elldallan wants to say is that backstabing, sabotaging and civil wars should be part of the game. As he said if he has to push a button(which means he will have the ability to change some intel manually and lie or purposefully delay update of his intel) then he will be fine with it :).
    Yes basically, although I've never been part of a kd civil war :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwitch View Post
    think it should be an opt out option now that I think about it. If someone wants to be a pain in the behind to their kingdom at the very least they should have to work for it :P
    No it definitely needs to be opt-in because the power scale should lie implicitly with the province and not with the kingdom. The province holder should be the absolute master of his demesne, it shouldn't be a power granted from the monarch to use a historical example.

    And to be perfectly clear, I'm not really the querulous sort of player, I run munkbot and I keep my intel updated usually several times per day, and it's accurate(as opposed to intentionally faked). But I absolutely object to the notion that doing so shouldn't be my choice to make, that it's an option that could be forced through in-game integration. The choice should be mine and mine alone.
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  15. #30
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    And to be perfectly clear, I'm not really the querulous sort of player, I run munkbot and I keep my intel updated usually several times per day, and it's accurate(as opposed to intentionally faked). But I absolutely object to the notion that doing so shouldn't be my choice to make, that it's an option that could be forced through in-game integration. The choice should be mine and mine alone
    But the choice isnt yours, would people not object if you didnt run munkbot? ...

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