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Thread: Is Munk now part of uto or ?

  1. #31
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    Nah, Bart is still in the junior league. Hes like the little kid that like to follow around the cool kids.

  2. #32
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    Will say I am far from perfect, but it has also always been my goal to show the "world of utopia" that this is simply part and parcel of EACH TIER of the game. The top is simply better at hiding it. In the ghetto tier deals are broken constantly, people double triple quadruple hostile and shitplay each other.

    In the warring tier play stays civil unless one of the KDs believes they don't have a shot at winning, in which case deals are broken and outside help is solicited (quite often from the top itself).

    In the top basically anything goes. Each of the top KDs uses (multiple) proxy KDs and loner provinces mostly run by ex-members to hit their enemies, farm land to them and provide any sort of advantage. At the same time they do "civil" diplomacy and claim a moral high ground here. The mere fact that after 11-12 ages of "borderline" play I only got GBed ONCE (and that was only because it was a direct shitplay to an established KD with other KDs having finished the age already) more or less shows the extent to which it is accepted by the parties on top.

    I think the fact that I was able to learn all these things so quickly after first starting to play this game (I mean I played before in mid-2000, but that was mostly as a ghetto farm) shows enough about the atmosphere the game still has. My greatest teacher in this game mechanically, strategically but also in the darker arts was Zauper himself, and he never looked down on what was done so long as it profited CR (mind you, he's not at all unique in this, literally every other top-monarch never had any problems with anything so long as they profited). Does this mean JeffT can't be mod of this game once he removed himself from active play? I very much disagree.

    I can pride myself on having taken the fight to the established elite in this game, paved the game for many future "new" forum posters to be heard. Sure, many still get shit-talked, but 2 years ago they'd simply be fully ignored as their opinion was deemed worthy to be taken into consideration as they didn't have enough crowns to back up that opinion. Obviously there have been others who have contributed to this as well, but I'm still happy to have played a part in the democratization of these forums

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansoor View Post
    So Bart is the new me? I have been replaced :(
    well I haven't crowned. I had this one opportunity 3 or 4 ages ago to shit-play myself to the crown, but a few players in the KD voted against it and said they'd intra if we'd DB. After that it's mostly been time constraints that kept me out of any competition :(

    You're a legend Mansoor, would be great to play alongside you one day :)

  4. #34
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    I'd also like to apologize to Munk and JeffT and DavidC and Bishop and Palem and ASF and Persain for contaminating these forums with such an ill-informed rant!

  5. #35
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    Manaoor would never apologies. Stand up for what you believe in woman!

  6. #36
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    @bart

    umunk is run separate from the actual utopia game. It has gotten the ability to be loaded more easily from the game interface. If other 3rd party tools would like something similar they can and we would like them to contact us about it.

    Running umunk is however separate from the help I provide David/Jeff with the game coding aspects. It costs me time/money to develop, maintain and run the umunk/munkbot server and provide help to people using it. If it wasn't for the donations I could not justify covering the costs I have with it and especially the 100s of hours I put into it. That is the reasoning why I have an expectation that kingdoms donate to it if they enjoy using it.

    When you refuse to support umunk and actively go out bad talking in public forums you hurt the personal motivation of running munkbot (as it is primarily a hobby project). Munkbot does not exist due to donations, it was created because of the personal/hobby-like enjoyment of providing the services (first to my own kingdom, and later to the game in general). The donation compensation helps keep this motivation high, but if I were to see it as 100% paid work I would be better off applying for a min-wage job (or just spend more time with my actual RL job).

    I appreciate your dedication to the game and it would be a loss for utopia if it did not have players with that level of dedication. However, for my sake, your behaviour erodes the personal motivation that is the driving force for me dedicating time to the game and I simply do not understand what I have done to you for you to behave like this.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansoor View Post
    Manaoor would never apologies. Stand up for what you believe in woman!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by munk View Post
    @bart

    umunk is run separate from the actual utopia game. It has gotten the ability to be loaded more easily from the game interface. If other 3rd party tools would like something similar they can and we would like them to contact us about it.

    Running umunk is however separate from the help I provide David/Jeff with the game coding aspects. It costs me time/money to develop, maintain and run the umunk/munkbot server and provide help to people using it. If it wasn't for the donations I could not justify covering the costs I have with it and especially the 100s of hours I put into it. That is the reasoning why I have an expectation that kingdoms donate to it if they enjoy using it.

    When you refuse to support umunk and actively go out bad talking in public forums you hurt the personal motivation of running munkbot (as it is primarily a hobby project). Munkbot does not exist due to donations, it was created because of the personal/hobby-like enjoyment of providing the services (first to my own kingdom, and later to the game in general). The donation compensation helps keep this motivation high, but if I were to see it as 100% paid work I would be better off applying for a min-wage job (or just spend more time with my actual RL job).

    I appreciate your dedication to the game and it would be a loss for utopia if it did not have players with that level of dedication. However, for my sake, your behaviour erodes the personal motivation that is the driving force for me dedicating time to the game and I simply do not understand what I have done to you for you to behave like this.
    Yea I agree I was out of line here. It actually started with a rant from a KD-member which triggered me to come here. There was also the live chat a few days ago which made me all the more worried about all the paying concepts that keep being put forward, and suspicious toward any further requests for more more more money. This, coupled with some sleep deprivation these last few days led to a post that was rather grumpy and unfair to you. So again, my apologies. I'll remove my previous posts in this topic to remove the negativity :)

  9. #39
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    The bot is incremental to competing, not integral.

    If Bart exposed things to others about the various tiers then people should reaccess their perceptions of the world lol. None of us are perfect, just as Bart mentions himself. Game morality is an interesting study but no different than human nature. If you have a winner and they have friends then eventually you'll have satellite provinces, or even kingdoms, that will react on behalf of the winner. But this is akin to humanity reacting in elemental ways, not creative.

    In other words, a winner will attract "friends" in the same manner elements evolve into compounds. These become increasingly complex but predictable. Human nature is a cocky way of saying animal or physical; by not reacting as a cultural template we simple repeat the laws.

    Now, with the new devs and munk; the move to purchase the game is indicative of creative vision.

    Munk making a bot is a creative endeavor, but note it's used by most is to further a monotonous pursuit.
    I point this out to munk as I have compassion for a creative spirit. - That when I review kingdoms recruiting they have stipulations that undermine creativity and force monotony in the name of results. And my verdict is that most are miserable failures because they don't understand the strength of intuition and aren't looking at the data that is screaming at them.

    All many care about is having everyone's data and thus telling them how to do something as a player they should already know. But I see it all the time; guy sits there in a fetal position waiting for permission to do anything including survive.
    And then they forget how to play. I see guys who have played for years and don't know how to handle a chain unless led by hand. Or t/ms that don't know how to attack. And none of it is sinister; it is supersaturated apathy based in anchoring to the known and shunning the unknown.

    As creative thinkers we can't always conceive the utility. Sometimes people on their phones walk into traffic or jam themselves underneath semi trucks because they were distracted by trivium when survival was the prime directive. (skinny-ass phones are the Swiss army knife of digitalia: I don't open bottles of wine while driving)

    So all this to say: the devs have the opportunity to do a little more than keep Utopia going.
    I see good things and would encourage them to teach. You have Persain and Aquaseafoam who can do more than moderate. They can demonstrate. Munk could YouTube a tour of the bot.

    The guys who are afraid or angry at Absalom will probably not be won over, but they use the bot and play the game anyways. Guys like me know it's just human nature, but it's time to move forward to a cultural Mesa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija View Post
    Thank you.
    Bart has done more for this game than most can even imagine, more importantly for the people playing it.
    I think you're not seeing both sides of the Bart Impact Coin...

    Undeniably, Bart HAS done a lot for the game AND the people in it, because he is a very intelligent player and can provide a lot of things like knowledge and advice on how to play the game itself, and especially how to deal with the political machinations within the community. However, as the phrase goes, "it takes one to know one" and he has also caused a lot of the strife in that same political atmosphere that he helps others navigate through.

    Bart actually has that complex of the "savior who guides people through the darkness... that he himself helps to create" in a sense. He creates his own community elevation opportunities.

    So when it comes to his approach towards those who oppose his viewpoints, primarily the developers and the very direction of the game itself, he has been borderline cancerous. He helps players sure, but his help comes from a place of strife and resistance, of emotional frustration and contrary behavior. He does what he does for the wrong reasons.

    You say he has passion for the game, which is true, but he also has passion for his own place within the game. He does whatever it takes to climb that ladder of importance, but he ends up leaking too much negativity along the way and it spills down on the rest of the community below him.

    If Bart could put aside his self-importance and adopt a stance of selfless cooperation, then perhaps his passion would be viewed as constructive instead of destructive. THAT would certainly become an asset to Utopia, but it's hard to see that ever happening, given how long he's had to realize that his direction is flawed and his course needs correction.
    Last edited by Verminator; 04-06-2017 at 14:33.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verminator View Post
    If Bart could put aside his self-importance and adopt a stance of selfless cooperation, then perhaps his passion would be viewed as constructive instead of destructive.
    It's very simple really. Sparta('s) always come #1 with me. I did offer the devs/mods to let go of that and enter their team. That was turned down.

    Actually I think your entire analysis of the situation and my character is spot on. I'd say on the one hand I do the things out of more abstract/ideological reasons, but at the same time ambition quite often gets the better of me. Only those without ambition are without its inevitable flaws. If however, I could equate my ambition to the direction of the game, I'd be able to let go of personal goals.

    And yes, I do believe that P2W is a bad way to go. And I also believe that adding more layers of mechanical complexity will make the game less enjoyable. There is more than enough complexity already in racial set-ups and the politics of the game. Adding more and more mechanical influences will just make the game more bland rather than interesting. Take chess. So simple, yet so intensely complicated and therefore played all around the world. If people want more fancy magic stuff they'll go and play hearthstone or some other crappy game.

    In fact, this honest trailer exactly explains why I believe we shouldn't keep adding more and more rules and sub-rules to this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqBOmvba0g

    Emphasis:

    0:45 --> ye lol
    0:55 --> translated to uto: Select one of the 81 race/personality combo's in the game.. or.. take one of the 2-7 that actually work each age.
    1:05 --> also trolol
    Last edited by Bart of Sparta; 04-06-2017 at 14:41.

  12. #42
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    If only ALL your posts could be this above-the-muck, because someone like you could do so much more good, but there's all that emotion that gets you swept up in the lesser arguments where you start passive-aggressively engaging in mini-flame wars. You're a mix of a great Utopian brain and enthusiasm for the game that is wasted on petty squabbles and resorting to backhanded machinations to gain your successes.

    We don't know that this will be a P2W model yet. There are hints of it, but nothing so far is concrete and there is going to be a lot of testing the waters going on. I agree, P2W is terrible for any game, but every game needs to find a model for success and P2W is the most easily achieved and commonly used in online games; especially ones that cannot compete with the higher end games with heavier graphical content and bigger player bases. MUGA is doing what they can in the short term to develop a model that is both profitable in a landscape of visually superior products, as well as not a drag down towards the same P2W mush that makes so many games bleed out from the lower half of their player base. The one thing they do need for this is TIME. It's not a quick process and it does require a little patience from the player base while they figure out a balance that works for their product.

    Okay wait that's two things. Time and patience. Patience and time... and ruthless efficiency. The THREE things they need are... well, you know where this is going.

  13. #43
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    The thing is that people in utopia only respect power. Fear is the only emotion that gets the required results. Soon as people stop fearing you they'll start hitting into your hostiles, preps or whatever. Because people know that if they screw over any KD I lead they're gonna end up in tatters within a few weeks, I am spared that shitplay. So yea, if everyone in war tier would just stick to their dealings and not be shitty about things I could also be less of a **** at times ^^

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Go ask stinger/upo/pimp why they aren't integrated. We are quite open about wanting to work with 3rd party tool developers

    Lol@analogy.
    To further this -- we are happy to provide a broad solution to these guys, but they either have not been responsive or are not interested. There are some potential liability issues we would have to work through with regards to loading outside javascript, but they could be handled.

    We are working with Darkmoore to provide an intel site solution that will be universal and prevent the need for outside java script to be loaded.

  15. #45
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    Wouldn't it be easier to integrate an intel site within the game itself? You can already click on provinces from the kd page, why not have that display all recent intel when you click on it instead of just land/nw/a motto that nobody uses?

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