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Thread: WW points currently

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by s0830887 View Post
    For once, I agree with Steel - new WW crown is essentially old Honour crown. I think it's a positive change.
    Just to clarify - I said that the WW Chart (as in since its conception) is the old Honor chart and that Honor has gained some legitimacy.

    The WW Chart changes might legitimize it a bit, though, if thats what you mean by positive change then OK.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffT View Post
    Well, the points formula itself didn't change, so the base points generated remains the same (and is still modified by size). But assuming that the base points generated were the same, 1 beating 40 would not receive double the points of 60 beating 54 (assuming they were those ranks for all charts), but would receive a slight bump relative to 60 beating 54 (before the influence of the size modifier).
    even a slight bump is bad in a case like that. Beating someone well below in nw/acres should earn less points every time, while warring up should be rewarded. It's no wonder we have all these bottomfeeding wars and wars against weaker opponents if the rewards flow in that direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by s0830887 View Post
    I don't see a problem with it, Mirana. That's probably not the response you want to hear! But you and I both know that warring KDs are actually pretty lame a lot of the time. Shaving is lame. Avoiding wars is lame. Fighting noobs KDs is lame. And, honestly, both your KD and mine do these things, because that's how warring level works. This should be discouraged - we all know that. I don't see an issue with encouraging KDs to fight the best competition they can.

    For once, I agree with Steel - new WW crown is essentially old Honour crown. I think it's a positive change.
    we most certainly do not drop land or purposely war weaker opponents. so with all due respect don't stick me in the same box as kingdoms that do.
    Kingdoms should find the best competition they can, that is exactly my point. Having 25 provinces pretty much automatically puts you into the rankings where you get more points. Having 25 provinces says very little about your warring skills though.
    Expecting a kingdom that has 22 provinces to war a kingdom with 25 is just silly(in most cases). And again , I am not going to bat here for those that purposely stay small to cheat the system. It's the kingdoms that try but can't get the 25 players now required to compete because there just aren't enough to go around.

  3. #33
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    Can we get the exact formula for WW points? I understand the logic of not officially announcing the exact formulas for things like spell success and gains, but WW points is a different thing. It's sort of "outside" the game mechanics - it's purely a ranking methodology. If it's to be thought of as the same as the other three crowns, the ranking methodology for the other three crowns is much more transparent. You have more land, you rank higher in land. You have more NW, you rank higher in NW. Higher honor, ranked higher in honor. Win more wars... you don't necessarily rank higher in WW points. It's just confusing.

    There is a logic to not officially announcing exact formulas but when the community is this confused about a ranking methodology, I think the admin should just give it out and let us see how it works.

    Personally, I like that you get more points for warring in larger tiers, but you also do get more points for warring a kingdom who's directly larger than you, right (I believe that existed in some form in the formula from previous ages)? So let us know the exact formula so we can see how it's weighted.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwitch View Post
    of course #1 vs #2 should get more points than 60th and 56th.
    No, #1 warring #2 ought to recieve similar points as #54 warring #60, what should discouraged is #1 warring #54, nothing else.
    Assuming that #1 wins ofc, #54 should definitely recieve a boost if they beat #1 but not the reverse.

    If #1 warring #2 gives more points that say #54 warring #55 then it just creates a feedback loop that creates an impassable barrier of entry, just like science pumps used to do for the nw/land competition.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 13-06-2017 at 04:07.
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  5. #35
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    My problem with the current implementation is that it gives a chance to whoring kds to get the ww "crown" without chasing it. Nw and land are tied togeter, ww and honor are tied togeter on their own level. You removed a "loophole" that allowed growth kds to achieve honor crown (lowering oow honor gains) but you replace it to another by providing another "backdoor acces" to ww crown, both were/are in relation with land. Thats a "bottomfeeding" mechanism of the "superior" crown on the "inferior" ones :p. (I assume the intention is still to offer lower tier kds somehing to chase. If not just merge them all in 1 :)

    And while many say it's for the better, gets more kds on top, gives incentives to better kds, i doubt that you can force this on people. It's a game and people play it as they like/can.

    So why not better tie ww by honor ranking because the changes thread sais " In order to incentivize conflict between top WW kingdom" not top land kds. And honor is now the most dominant product of wining wars. (While land is not : whoring, exploring oow hits, you get the picture)


    Ps: if in the past ww chart was flawed because of ld's and hunting wars with ghettos i can see a situation in the future when it would be flawed because of hunting wars with whoring kds. With a fs-ish setup get 2 war wins fast, dump pool and then war a whoring kd. Grind them out while they take your land, they tact widr, you take the ww, they take the land, both happy. After 2 ww +pool, so high acres, the ww land bonus will probably cover (or close) your losses and you move for next lower whoring kd, or why not, if possible, b2b.
    Last edited by drakon; 13-06-2017 at 09:24.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by drakon View Post
    My problem with the current implementation is that it gives a chance to whoring kds to get the ww "crown" without chasing it. Nw and land are tied togeter, ww and honor are tied togeter on their own level. You removed a "loophole" that allowed growth kds to achieve honor crown (lowering oow honor gains) but you replace it to another by providing another "backdoor acces" to ww crown, both were/are in relation with land. Thats a "bottomfeeding" mechanism of the "superior" crown on the "inferior" ones :p. (I assume the intention is still to offer lower tier kds somehing to chase. If not just merge them all in 1 :)

    And while many say it's for the better, gets more kds on top, gives incentives to better kds, i doubt that you can force this on people. It's a game and people play it as they like/can.

    So why not better tie ww by honor ranking because the changes thread sais " In order to incentivize conflict between top WW kingdom" not top land kds. And honor is now the most dominant product of wining wars. (While land is not : whoring, exploring oow hits, you get the picture)


    Ps: if in the past ww chart was flawed because of ld's and hunting wars with ghettos i can see a situation in the future when it would be flawed because of hunting wars with whoring kds. With a fs-ish setup get 2 war wins fast, dump pool and then war a whoring kd. Grind them out while they take your land, they tact widr, you take the ww, they take the land, both happy. After 2 ww +pool, so high acres, the ww land bonus will probably cover (or close) your losses and you move for next lower whoring kd, or why not, if possible, b2b.
    To get the WW crown you still need to war multiple times. If a large KD goes 5/5 fighting top quality opposition, then they deserve WW crown more than a small KD who preys on ghettos and goes 8/8.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by s0830887 View Post
    To get the WW crown you still need to war multiple times. If a large KD goes 5/5 fighting top quality opposition, then they deserve WW crown more than a small KD who preys on ghettos and goes 8/8.
    don't think too many are arguing that part. Giving a bonus simply because someone is big even if they fight way smaller kingdoms is the thing that is broken. Fixing the range at which points are given could be the answer. Leave the declare range the same but only award points and bonuses for wars within 10% or so.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    No, #1 warring #2 ought to recieve similar points as #54 warring #60, what should discouraged is #1 warring #54, nothing else.
    Assuming that #1 wins ofc, #54 should definitely recieve a boost if they beat #1 but not the reverse.

    If #1 warring #2 gives more points that say #54 warring #55 then it just creates a feedback loop that creates an impassable barrier of entry, just like science pumps used to do for the nw/land competition.
    That would just encourage people staying small bashing ghettos even more.

  9. #39
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    We should just accept the way the points are counted. It is currently the best possible system. Until the devs decide to change it, it will remains o.
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  10. #40
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    Im a fan of the new WW charts.

    We just hit #1 with 11.58 points

    Before our last war we were 3.52
    Warred the KD in first at the time at 6.85

    Both top 25 KD's.

    So yes, gain more the better KD you are warring, which is nice.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanCanto View Post
    Im a fan of the new WW charts.

    We just hit #1 with 11.58 points

    Before our last war we were 3.52
    Warred the KD in first at the time at 6.85

    Both top 25 KD's.

    So yes, gain more the better KD you are warring, which is nice.
    Congratulations to our first 'esteemed' kingdom.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffT View Post
    Congratulations to our first 'esteemed' kingdom.
    Does it still count if they are a esteemed ghetto? Apparently they are looking for meat.

  13. #43
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    There seems to be a whole lot of misconception regarding the War Points formula change. Understandably, the final changes post is not as straightforward as it probably could (or should) have been.

    As JeffT already mentioned, the base formula for determining the war points awarded has been unchanged, therefore any theories about relative KD size being taken away can just be ruled out. The change that was made for this age was to add a modifier based on Kingdom rank on any of the charts. This is also included in the final changes post, just not very clear. To be more clear: based on the rank of your opponent (on any chart) you have the potential to receive 1.0x the war win points as determined by the war point formula from ages past all the way up to 2.0x the war win points you would have received from the formula from ages past. There is a snapshot of both Kingdom ranks taken at the start of war that the formula uses to then determine the points awarded once the war concludes.

    If a kingdom intentionally stays small to fight in the 100-150 ranked kingdom sizes and manages to get and win 10 wars, or 15 wars, should that kingdom be ranked as a better war kingdom than a kingdom that has managed to fight and win 5-7 wars in the Top 25 of the server?
    Likewise, a whore kingdom that has a single war at the end of the age will not be able to win the war win crown with a single war (or 2).


    It should also be noted, that the war win bonus also has significant effects derived from your war win points. Up to a 50% increase is possible to the war win bonus! To translate, that means war win kingdoms that are doing well on the war win charts will be forced into the higher land/nw/honor arena. So technically, a good war kingdom will have an easier time achieving a quad crown than a whore kingdom because of the war win bonuses they are receiving. Keep in mind, the personal explore pools make it so that when a dedicated war kingdom eventually fights a 'whore' kingdom there isn't going to be any massive disadvantage for the war kingdom because they haven't focused their entire age into developing 2 or 3 cows at 30k acres. Personal pools means that top 'whore' kingdoms will have relatively similar sized provinces making the war kingdom much better prepared to fight (due to the honor and other war related stats).

    To me, this entire thread is pre-mature as there hasn't been time for war kingdoms to develop and take advantage of the bonuses they will receive from doing well via warring. To look at such a small sample size and draw such conclusions seems out of place. Time will tell if the changes have the desired effect. The proper amount of time has not yet passed.
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  14. #44
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    DavidC, a warring tier kingdom is only going be able to snag a quad crown (or even the land/NW crown) if they're dumping their explore pool when it fills up. There aren't many warring kingdoms that want to dump their pool and grow that much though.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    There seems to be a whole lot of misconception regarding the War Points formula change. Understandably, the final changes post is not as straightforward as it probably could (or should) have been.

    As JeffT already mentioned, the base formula for determining the war points awarded has been unchanged, therefore any theories about relative KD size being taken away can just be ruled out. The change that was made for this age was to add a modifier based on Kingdom rank on any of the charts. This is also included in the final changes post, just not very clear. To be more clear: based on the rank of your opponent (on any chart) you have the potential to receive 1.0x the war win points as determined by the war point formula from ages past all the way up to 2.0x the war win points you would have received from the formula from ages past. There is a snapshot of both Kingdom ranks taken at the start of war that the formula uses to then determine the points awarded once the war concludes.

    If a kingdom intentionally stays small to fight in the 100-150 ranked kingdom sizes and manages to get and win 10 wars, or 15 wars, should that kingdom be ranked as a better war kingdom than a kingdom that has managed to fight and win 5-7 wars in the Top 25 of the server?
    Likewise, a whore kingdom that has a single war at the end of the age will not be able to win the war win crown with a single war (or 2).


    It should also be noted, that the war win bonus also has significant effects derived from your war win points. Up to a 50% increase is possible to the war win bonus! To translate, that means war win kingdoms that are doing well on the war win charts will be forced into the higher land/nw/honor arena. So technically, a good war kingdom will have an easier time achieving a quad crown than a whore kingdom because of the war win bonuses they are receiving. Keep in mind, the personal explore pools make it so that when a dedicated war kingdom eventually fights a 'whore' kingdom there isn't going to be any massive disadvantage for the war kingdom because they haven't focused their entire age into developing 2 or 3 cows at 30k acres. Personal pools means that top 'whore' kingdoms will have relatively similar sized provinces making the war kingdom much better prepared to fight (due to the honor and other war related stats).

    To me, this entire thread is pre-mature as there hasn't been time for war kingdoms to develop and take advantage of the bonuses they will receive from doing well via warring. To look at such a small sample size and draw such conclusions seems out of place. Time will tell if the changes have the desired effect. The proper amount of time has not yet passed.

    Do you honestly believe the nonsense you're trying to state as fact?

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