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Thread: Razing into an open war.

  1. #226
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    gaining a poor reputation is as close to a death sentence as you can get.

  2. #227
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    Before we get into a big asoiaf thing, I'll just check first. You're posting that ironically right?

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    Before we get into a big asoiaf thing, I'll just check first. You're posting that ironically right?
    Possibly/probably!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    In the real world, assuming you're dead and the offender is in jail, yea having the moral high ground is useless.

    In utopia, where people not only never really die and no one forgets anything, gaining a poor reputation is as close to a death sentence as you can get.


    You're right. People act according to what they think they should do. However if you deny that where these things overlap for most people is where we define what normal social protocol is and people tend to be judged by how they behave in comparison with that, then you're far more naive than you'd like to accuse me of being lol

    Ok, let's not deviate too much from the reason I decided in the first place to step up and write a few words. The reason was basically this :

    ""Quote Originally Posted by Meep View Post
    The aggressor does not get to tell the person they robbed what response is and isn't acceptable.
    At some point they do.

    If a guy tries to mug you and you beat the piss out of him, yea, he had that coming and there's no right to complain about anything.

    If a guy tries to mug you, and you beat him to death on the street, grab his ID, find his home, break in, tie up his wife, round up his children and starts brutally torturing the children to death in front of the mother and then after all the children are dead he takes the wife and as he's raping her he cuts off her head with a steak knife he found in the kitchen and then sets the severed head on a spike in the now destroyed families lawn....yea I'd say that the person being mugged crossed a line and wronged the mugger."

    If I understand correctly what you're saying above, is that if you do initiate a mild aggression against some unknown dude (in RL, nowhere above is stated that this is Uto situation, my taking is that was all about RL - I'm wrong ?) then you expect him to have a mild reaction to your aggression. An answer fit to your "crime". And that, my friend, I think is an extremely dangerous thing to assume; it is reckless (at least imo) to be confident on such assumption. That kind of thinking and behaving COULD end up with poor consequences.

    I'd like to think that I'm not that naive, since I agree 100% with your statement "where these things overlap for most people is where we define what normal social protocol is and people tend to be judged by how they behave in comparison with that"
    However, in that statement, "most people" will probably never be equal to "all people", hence "what normal social protocol is" will never apply to everyone. Because of that, you put yourself at risk expecting everyone to act civil, mannered, calmly, kindly etc. - in other words, to respond accordingly with your actions, good or bad, not to exaggerate, not to overreact. They won't. You simply have to be realistic and realize that, when you mug someone, there's really no way of telling how that will end. If you don't want to discover that it ended badly for you (and maybe your entire family), then don't do that aggression. If you are aware that it may go sideways, better be prepared. But, never ever tell anyone "look, it was just a small offense, really, I don't understand why that reaction !?" 'Cause that will sound silly, not knowing what this world is, not knowing what beasts some people can be.

    PS : "In utopia, where people not only never really die and no one forgets anything, gaining a poor reputation is as close to a death sentence as you can get." - I think it's more than obvious that, just as in RL, some people in here doesn't give a rats a$$ about "reputation", "what others think" and things like that :)
    Last edited by jacko; 22-06-2017 at 16:18.

  5. #230
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    If I understand correctly what you're saying above, is that if you do initiate a mild aggression against some unknown dude (in RL, nowhere above is stated that this is Uto situation, my taking is that was all about RL - I'm wrong ?) then you expect him to have a mild reaction to your aggression. An answer fit to your "crime". And that, my friend, I think is an extremely dangerous thing to assume; it is reckless (at least imo) to be confident on such assumption. That kind of thinking and behaving COULD end up with poor consequences.
    Yeap. Dude prank-steals material in N-Korea --> dead

  6. #231
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    And that, my friend, I think is an extremely dangerous thing to assume; it is reckless (at least imo) to be confident on such assumption. That kind of thinking and behaving COULD end up with poor consequences.
    It's not extremely dangerous. Its the exact understanding that allows people to freely live their lives and interact with other human beings rather than cowering in fear at the minute possibility that the person you're passing on the street might be a psychopath that will stab the first person to look them in the eyes.

    Understanding that most people are normal and expecting their behavior to reflect that does not mean denying the existence of other people that are not normal.

    They can put on their apathetic facade all they'd like, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't see people power playing to win wars or crowns. I don't see kingdoms abusing tactics that are pretty much 100% guarantees to win. I'm willing to bet it's not because they just aren't interested in winning.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    It's not extremely dangerous. Its the exact understanding that allows people to freely live their lives and interact with other human beings rather than cowering in fear at the minute possibility that the person you're passing on the street might be a psychopath that will stab the first person to look them in the eyes.

    Understanding that most people are normal and expecting their behavior to reflect that does not mean denying the existence of other people that are not normal.

    They can put on their apathetic facade all they'd like, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't see people power playing to win wars or crowns. I don't see kingdoms abusing tactics that are pretty much 100% guarantees to win. I'm willing to bet it's not because they just aren't interested in winning.
    Lol, you took my words out of the context :)
    I wasn't saying that it's dangerous to "freely live their lives and interact with other human beings rather than cowering in fear at the minute possibility that the person you're passing on the street might be a psychopath", I was saying that is dangerous to mug (even mildly) some random stranger and expect him to mildly respond back.

    I'm stopping here, it seems we can't reach an agreeement, which is ok, we're here to debate rather than to agree; but it bothers me to take my words and twist them.
    Best of luck to 7:7 taking decisions and living with the consequences.

  8. #233
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    I wouldn't call a fairly substantial assault "mild". I'm just saying there are reasonable limits to what is an acceptable response. Now, that limit might fluctuate a bit from person to person, since we all have our own personal opinions about these things, but there's most definitely a "spot" where you cross the line of being socially acceptable.

    To go back to the mugging example. A mugger expecting a pretty large range of reactions is pretty standard. They could just hand over their stuff and comply. They could try to fight you. They could go running and try to find help. They could just stand there and just start screaming their lungs out. Expecting any or all those things and things like that are reasonable.

    Imo, and I'm not a mugger, so maybe I'm just being naive, it's not reasonable for a mugger to expect his victim to stop in his tracks, pull his pants down and start blasting him with ****s lol. I think everyone, with perhaps the exception of a few people, that blasting a mugger with ****s, at the very least, is an incredibly odd reaction and wouldn't be expected even in the most strenuous of situations lol
    Last edited by Palem; 22-06-2017 at 17:40. Reason: Words are hard

  9. #234
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    This argument is kinda senseless and a repetition of moves, simply because both parties think from different perspectives/paradigms.

    Palems look at this from a moral perspective, while I look at this from a pragmatic perspective.

    When he judges behavior he looks at whether he believes one "ought to" do that, and whether it's "fair", fair being defined mostly by what he was taught to be fair by the environment in which he grew up. Said environment (the West) dictates restraint in the face of divergent behavior (criminality, doing that which is forbidden by law/customs, a set of arbitrary rules written/thought up mostly by our ancestors). This gives him a "cadre" in which he can position certain deeds and what the response should be based on the intrinsic value of human beings/actors.

    I on the other hand simply look at results. I have gold + people sometimes steal my gold --> due to a lack of mechanically viable ways to protect gold while also producing it, I need another way to make sure it doesn't happen. Being nice to some while making an example of others has proven to be quite a viable way. Now, obviously at one stage there might be a backlash (KDs can band together against me, people like Korp/Mike might dedicate an entire age to stealing my gold). So far however I have not estimated the probability of that happening to be high enough as to warrant becoming a factor in my calculations, ergo there is no reason to change my ways.

    If the evidence however should point toward my methods being faulty, I'll have to re-assess said methods and make use of other devices. Protector/ASF for instance intrinsically act in exactly the same way that I do (they calculate odds/costs/savings) while to the world they claim they act like Palem, feigning care for morality. Given their more than successful track record I'd say that this has definitely paid its diffident. Obviously they (and the top in general) has done forum-combat mostly based on morality, accusing the other side of being like me while themselves claiming they are like Palem. Therefore the discussion has often revolved around which side is better at hiding true intentions and claim moral high ground, which in turn leads to them being able to attract more people to their cause. Of course many people have through sheer experience seen through these falsities, but it was only until a person such as I, capable of transforming these experiences into a coherent narrative that people really started to get annoyed by it. This in turn has led to community backlash, and in its slipstream mechanical changes to cater for the "silent majority", as the silent majority is and will remain the biggest source of income for the owners.

    GG

  10. #235
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    Who said anything about morals? I'm pretty supportive of anyone doing different things so long as they aren't against the rules.

    You can go back and read Bart. I'm not firmly against you on this. However, I think a very dangerous precedent is being set to jumping to the most extreme punishments over the most mild of offenses.

    I.e. we're launching nukes because Kim Jung Un kicked a cat.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    Who said anything about morals?.
    In the same post you just did it again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    However, I think a very dangerous precedent is being set to jumping to the most extreme punishments over the most mild of offenses.

    I.e. we're launching nukes because Kim Jung Un kicked a cat.

  12. #237
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    Control+f:"morals"=no results :(

    I'm not talking about morals. I'm talking about social norms. There's a difference. There is basically nothing that someone could do in utopia that I would call "morally wrong" (in terms of the actual game and in-game actions).

  13. #238
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    I cant do the things I want to do anymore

  14. #239
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    Im pretty sure this thread has derailed...
    “The only person you are destined to become is the person you decide to be.”
    - unknown

  15. #240
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    I'm pretty sure you're right.

    @Palem or any other Mod: Can this thread be deleted/locked as per the request of the OP (me)?

    I got the answer to my original question and the last 5 pages or so have been about completely unrelated moral/pragmatism/social norms discussions for which the only conclusion is "Let's agree to disagree"

    Thank you,
    Illy

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