Just so we all have our facts straight for #PayKuhan

[Korp]

When did we play together?

In Playboys and Funshow.

What rounds did you crown in that I played? The only time I can recall was when Bio was given a charity crown when flogger and most of the trollfags joined to augment the existing kd. I am friendly with a few of those guys and they told me how bad the kd (and previous leadership) was prior to their joining. Everyone has 1 charity crown, including warcry. Age after that we farmed Bio to 50% our NW after they double teamed us and disbanded the kd. Baka pretended to get into a car accident to avoid the same. It was hilarious.

You tell other people to grow up and then you write **** like this. :)) Oh the irony.

[Meeni]

Here for your memory Proteus: No one but you called it a charity crown. In fact, seems like I thought you were pretty bad back then when it was finally me vs you.

To the team, GG everyone, glad i could be a part of it. Thanks everyone for doing your part and glad we pushed through and took it in the end. Hope ya all had as much fun as I did :)

Big ups to the rest of the top 10+ kds and provs who kept the age exciting.

@Proteus I really like how you try and be subtle about backhanded complements. Don't worry, me and baka were the only ones that war that beat you. I was kind of disappointed how bad your strategy was... I was looking forward to a good war after probably 7+ ages of hype about Rage from everyone and the whole thread about BiO farming out to Rage. Activity was perfect, the rest of the age was fairly strong as expected and some cool ideas (like using Fortified to train up without sacrificing much in the way of dice when you waved insolence), but your warring skills are weak. Maybe Rage can find another leader for war and you can stick to cowing or whatever you think you're good at. Stay out of diplomacy too.

Fury on the other hand was an extremely tough challenge. I was rooting for the Fury team since they got the new leadership in last age and this age they were as good as expected (excellent). We always do "Perfect play" vs "Perfect play" scenarios and that first war was a real treat - definitely the most enjoyable and difficult in the past 6+ ages for me. Top notch kingdom with top leadership that delivered a strong performance and I look forward to following their activity next few ages (if leadership team is the same).

Catch ya later Utopia... what a great send off. Really couldn't have asked for more.

[Proteus]

Here for your memory Proteus: No one but you called it a charity crown. In fact, seems like I thought you were pretty bad back then when it was finally me vs you.

If you say so.

I'm glad that you conveniently left out that

1. You actually withdrew from the war and lost. Withdrawing = losing spin it any way you want. Game defines what winning was is, it's when you get to war win. If you are truly beating someone, they have to withdraw to prevent you from farming them further.
2. You played avian, a race with a significant attack time advantage. This setup let you effectively steal a free wave of land and withdraw with it before our orcs could hit you back. You didn't gain anything all war other than your withdraw wave.
3. After you WD we have prepped in eow to B2B you and caught you pants down untrained and unprepared oow, and started robbing you. As soon as that happens, InZZolence led by protector who was in no position to engage Rage full waved us and meatshield themselves, farming out to us to save your pathetic kd. Later in the age, Inzzolence also tried to block Fury from fighting you but we waved them to stop that. Inzzolence was your cannon fodder that whole age bailing you out of tough spots.
4. You had top players and leaders from trollfags and flogger join your kd who are known to bring crowns to kds they play in.
5. You got lucky enough to farm HOHs poorly constructed undead setup and you gained in that war and it was the only war you got WW from that whole age.
6. After trollfags and flogger left your kd the following age, you and Baka were back to the ghetto you were before it all started. You hit us into an open conflict with Psych Ward who had given us button, trash talked us, and while we warred Paych Ward Baka threatened to vulture and own us. After we farmed Psych Ward Baka had deleted all of his forum posts, did not dare to wave us, and we waved you instead and farmed you to 50% our NW. After that Baka had pretended to get into a car accident and bio shortly disbanded. The whole server made fun of you.

Sorry dude you aren't even a has been, you are a never was. If you notice the consistency, Bio was a **** playing ghetto that would farm out every single age except for when it had a massive infusion of talent, after said talent left Bio went back to farming out and ****playing again. Your one win was the exception, not the norm. Talk about riding other people's coat tails. Pathetic.

[Meeni]

I figured it wouldn't be that hard to bring out your true colors.

I actually stopped playing after that win because I reached my goal. I did come back later to coattail on BBs B2B for 2.5 ages, no shame in that.

Also it was baka's idea and abuse of bouncing and my idea and abuse of war withdrawals that led to major changes in how the game was structured, so kinda proud of that. War win rewards were introduced the age after. Your claim that you would have beat us in a longer-term war is a moot point, we (at least I) had no plans to get war wins that age.

Also it's really dumb that you say "if you didn't have that extra wave". Weren't you orcs with +gains? We were avians with -time? I think an equal amount of waves would obviously work out in your favor.

I think we went 0/7 that age and always withdrew at max acres.

The rest of your post is just noise. Abs was king of using meat shields and setting up alliance-wide deals and strategy to consistently win. It was very impressive, and even more impressive was when relative independents would take crown (e.g. Sonata). I also recall Fury leaving the alliance later because you tried to get them to play meat shield even when you were the weaker kingdom and they and Sanctuary had a much better chance at crowning. I'd be furious too.

[s0830887]

I love this story. I also see lots of Proteus ignoring the bet itself, and arguing with everything else he reads

[protector]

You miss the point that I don't care about you same 10 people that make troll and negative posts. If you count the club of people that post negative stuff it is actually very very small and comprised of the same people, these are also people that the kds I played in tended to often own and embarrass. So yes I don't care. Why would I do anything to satisfy or try to change the perception of people I don't care about.

Elit really needs to chime in on age 61 but I believe there was some lame play against AMA that age who was by far the most dominant kd on the server during those ages

No there wasn't, we whored better and since we were allies we had a cf clause for mutual fights only. Due to my time in hospital and a 6-7 week recovery we didn't fight.

Seriously,why are you always looking for an excuse? I show you an age I get my kd a crown and its still no good.
Such a weakling you are lmao :)

[protector]

How many trollfags were there actually in Bio? And wasn't trollfags created after Bio crowned anyway?

Inso waving you wasn't to block but you like to think that lol

So, when are you going to check with flogger if I told you the truth huh?

[AquaSeaFoam]

I think we went 0/7 that age and always withdrew at max acres.

I believe there was a discussion on this recently and flogger linked to a past thread showing (if I remember right) that BIO actually was 3/4 wars won that age with BIO's only loss being to Rage.

Abs was king of using meat shields and setting up alliance-wide deals and strategy to consistently win. It was very impressive, and even more impressive was when relative independents would take crown (e.g. Sonata). I also recall Fury leaving the alliance later because you tried to get them to play meat shield even when you were the weaker kingdom and they and Sanctuary had a much better chance at crowning. I'd be furious too.

You may have heard that, but the meat shield part is quite false. In Abs outside of the alliance wars, it was nearly exclusively the stronger kingdoms helping the weaker. Independents frequently taking the crown while surrounded by Abs kingdoms was actually strong evidence of Abs *not* teaming up to powerplay the good independent kingdom. There often were alliance wide deals, so that is true, but again, the reason for those deals was that the strong Abs kingdoms who were in good position would often offer to cf an opposing kingdom for free if that kingdom would also give the weaker Abs kingdoms free cf's. I'm not sure which 'side' these alliance wide deals helped more since both benefited which is why both wanted such deals. Within Abs, it was clearly the weaker Abs kingdoms who benefitted from the help of the stronger by these deals.

You are mistaken on the reasons Fury left the alliance. First, you should understand that Flogger (who was formerly leading Mercy of Absalom and had close ties with Fury) had been working on getting Fury to leave since Flogger left himself. Fury very much wanted a crown and beating BIO the age in question was their best chance at it. InZZ was pumped topfeeding avian sages with nasty op and chain ability that were going to block Fury for BIO (Fury had poor thief mage defenses and would have been mass topfed chained losing lots of land and any chance to crown). Fury asked Rage to help them by blocking InZZ for them so Fury could prepare and fight BIO. Rage warred and beat InZZ (didn't really gain anything since InZZ had a terrible setup and spread for anyone to fight.) Fury had full prep and great position to fight BIO for the crown. Fury lost big time.

Flogger then apparently convinced Fury that they shouldn't have fought BIO directly and they instead should have warred the smaller pumped sage and hybrid kingdom InZZ and farmed them for a crown and dodged BIO. A combination of Flogger being extremely persuasive and fury being extremely gullible seems to have lead to one of the biggest cases of cognitive dissonance I've seen and Fury blamed Absalom for letting them fight BIO and blocking InZZ for them at their own request. I think one or more Fury leaders also needed someone to blame for losing to BIO and with that, their best chance at a crown, and so they told their kingdom some fibs. Flogger then convinced Fury that they were the best kingdom on the server and if they left Abs, they'd crown easy and Flogger would help them out.

After Fury left Abs, they grew well oop and waved Rage. BIO intentionally 2v1'd into this conflict while farming gc from flogger to support the efforts. As Proteus said, Baka posted a thread about it saying how he'll do what he wants with the 2v1 and he'll farm Rage after their Fury (Psych Ward) war too. Rage then farmed Fury (Psych Ward) in war and BIO immediately after. Even with this blatant intentional 2v1 (that was even funded by a 3rd kingdom) Abs never intervened and Rage handled everything by themselves. Fury had some good success in Abs. I don't think they were able to come close to matching that after leaving even though they believed they had their strongest team ever, so again this is evidence of how the weaker kingdoms were helped within Abs.

[Lestat]

Who were the leaders of Fury?

[AquaSeaFoam]

Ervgotti and Simkin along with some others. I'll add that I never had any evidence of Fury wanting the "3v1" on Rage that early age conflict, but it may have been more than just a coincidence that Flogger recruited them away from Abs the age before when flogger was in BIO with promises of helping them crown and then the next age when Fury waved Rage, BIO waved into the fight with Flogger now in Pulse/BB feeding BIO gc.

[Meeni]

Interesting to hear the fury story from your side ASF, I only caught it through the grapevine and little "what happened in uto" blurbs.

As for the alliance-wide deals, I don't think you can really say that solo kds getting a deal with the weaker kds was not to the benefit of the stronger kds in the alliance any way you look at it.

A stronger kd wouldn't want to enter a deal where the solo kd farms the weaker one and has plenty of time to build into acres. Similarly there have been plenty of examples of kds losing a #1 vs. #2 and coming back to win the age by feeding off smaller kds or when the #1 ties up elsewhere. I know we factored all that stuff in when considering deals and I assume you did too.

Beyond that, you can setup engagements in the preferred order such that unless it's a complete farmout, even if the solo kd wins the first war they'll encounter a much-better prepared opponent in the second or third war or not have the size and prep necessary to even go to war, so their crown run ends there especially if late in the age.

Last point - checked the rankings archives and we had 1 official win (0.92 War Win score) - HoH withdrawal took us by surprise, I think we were looking at a couple more waves to hit max acres but they WD first. Rest were our withdrawals, as I always sought to hit max acres and peace out as the engagement schedule was super tight. Couldn't afford to stay in war and risk the other kd dragging it along (since mean reversion was pretty prominent, especially with a low-longevity setup like av/merch).

IIRC the Rage war was no different, we calculated something like 2k lower gains had we stayed as Rage was set to wave next and orc has that advantage on an equal-waves basis. A good portion of the kd actually threw a hissy fit that we weren't staying in to shoot for the win but victory was never my focus with the setup or playstyle. If it were, we'd choose something that didn't collapse like a house of cards within 3-4 days or be able to rebuild and be ready for the next war within 4-5 days.

I will say that the age changes fit very well to the kd's preferred playing style (extremely active, prefer to war than thumb twiddle, more experience in war than in diplomacy) so that was definitely a large factor in the success that age. Dealing with impatience and whining by people who are not used to being top 10 let alone top 30 becomes infinitely worse if you tell them they have to sit and do almost nothing for most of the age. We had been testing banking the prior 2 ages and didn't have crown aspirations so much as just wanting to try new things (failures but vast improvements in age over age results as we learned to navigate some of the diplo aspects better). The run for crown that age was decided when we saw we didn't need to cow and could gain from going to short wars with the avian merch setup, so it really just played to what the kd knew best and liked to do with less of the parts we didn't know as well.

[flogger]

Also very little of that is true because I never give people deceptively terrible advice. I may give bad advice, but I don't try and "trick" people

[AquaSeaFoam]

Meeni, I had initially thought it was 0/4, but flogger had convinced me it was 3/4 in a thread an age or so ago. Nice work finding it was just the HoH war win. No denying your strategy was effective and won the age while still fighting the top competition.

flogger, that could be, but then you really weren't paying attention if you actually thought Fury could have had any chance at winning the age if they fought InZZ instead of BIO. They had a pretty even chance vs BIO based on positioning and it was their only reasonable path to crown without ridiculous alliance action to help them. Vs Inzz they might have been able to win the war (questionable and there was no ww bonus) but they certainly would have lost land and had no chance for a run at BIO after.

[flogger]

Meeni, I had initially thought it was 0/4, but flogger had convinced me it was 3/4 in a thread an age or so ago. Nice work finding it was just the HoH war win. No denying your strategy was effective and won the age while still fighting the top competition.

flogger, that could be, but then you really weren't paying attention if you actually thought Fury could have had any chance at winning the age if they fought InZZ instead of BIO. They had a pretty even chance vs BIO based on positioning and it was their only reasonable path to crown without ridiculous alliance action to help them. Vs Inzz they might have been able to win the war (questionable and there was no ww bonus) but they certainly would have lost land and had no chance for a run at BIO after.

You know me well enough I don't remember particulars from 7 years ago, but I know me well enough to know I never tricked ervgotti into doing something retarded just to help me crown. I screwed ervgotti exactly one time, when I asked him not to war us after some loss which could have helped him that I insinutated I'd be up for the war earlier in whatever age that was. As he went off to the U, up until this age, best I can remember no kd I was affiliated with ever hit him for like 4 years as I felt I owed him one, and I didn't wanna fight him this age and tried to talk BB out of it.

Obviously we often have different takes for "whats best to crown" often enough.

[Mansoor]

17 years and AsF still going with his political skillz justifying his ****. A true american! Gotta give him that!