Top Tier

[Rincewind]

So I was just wondering, never really had any interaction with the Top Tier and been in a Kingdom that has finished top 25-30 in all areas for the last few ages.

Is there enough up there for the Top Kingdoms to keep busy? Is there any way to balance the power more so that the same Kingdoms/players don't always Crown every age.

Just Curious, as it seems there is a top tier and then the rest mentality. Sometime I read stuff which makes it sounds like the Top Tier aren't even bothered about the rest of the Kingdoms or Provinces? Is it even fun playing like that?>

[Sheister]

Rincewind,

All of those are good questions.

There are very few top tier kingdoms left because of the demands of leading and training players. When a newer kingdom gets organized enough to want to try to join the top, it is a very difficult hurdle to cross because the first two or three ages it almost always gets thrashed as it learns all the new aspects of balancing play in the top. Most kingdoms can't take the punishment that happens. However, whenever anyone new tries, I think the top is generally welcoming and there is always someone working hard to try to keep that kingdom from farming out too hard and unbalancing the top. The problem comes when a new kingdom won't take ANY advice and then ends up farming out hard and unbalancing the top. That is when you start to see the complaints and *****ing.

The other problem is that, to compete with each other, they need to harvest off the rest of the server for a time. This breeds a lot of resentment across the server for the top. When the other's express their resentment, it breeds disdain in the top and you read things like "cry me a river! it's a war game" and "its not fair that you bottom feed!" and so on. That is a challenge in almost any ladder style open engagement environment and I don't htink I have ever seen a game with a perfect solution.

does that address some of your questions?

[Rincewind]

Thanks for the info :)

Yeah, it's what I think I expected. Like you said, there doesn't seem to be any easy solution to the disparity. In short, more active and organised player/Kingdoms will rise to the top because they put in more time etc etc not much you could do (should do?) about that.

Would the Top want it to be more competitive? Ie either through penalties to them to make it harder, or boosts to smaller Kingdoms to make it easier? (Thinking something like the Draft pick for NFL - Worst teams get first pick, best get the last)

[Judge]

Rincewind,

All of those are good questions.

There are very few top tier kingdoms left because of the demands of leading and training players. When a newer kingdom gets organized enough to want to try to join the top, it is a very difficult hurdle to cross because the first two or three ages it almost always gets thrashed as it learns all the new aspects of balancing play in the top. Most kingdoms can't take the punishment that happens. However, whenever anyone new tries, I think the top is generally welcoming and there is always someone working hard to try to keep that kingdom from farming out too hard and unbalancing the top. The problem comes when a new kingdom won't take ANY advice and then ends up farming out hard and unbalancing the top. That is when you start to see the complaints and *****ing.

The other problem is that, to compete with each other, they need to harvest off the rest of the server for a time. This breeds a lot of resentment across the server for the top. When the other's express their resentment, it breeds disdain in the top and you read things like "cry me a river! it's a war game" and "its not fair that you bottom feed!" and so on. That is a challenge in almost any ladder style open engagement environment and I don't htink I have ever seen a game with a perfect solution.

does that address some of your questions?

Such a decent reply. This made me cry.. :D

[Sheister]

I think the top would like more competition. We all pine for the days when it was. Back in ages 15-30 or so, it meant something to finish in the top 100. Then until around age 40 it meant soemthing to finish in the top 25 or so. Then after age 50, the top 10 was the better standard.

In terms of penalties, I think that would be hard to stomach. I am not sure many players have the internal emotional strength to "lose" to an unpenalized kingdom who would give out a "woohoo we beat [insert elite kingdom]" and not start the resentment war "that is only because we are so heavily penalized you nubs!" See? So I don't think penalties work well.

[Rincewind]

Yeah, can hope the player base increases again to those number or more one day!

I suppose, people do like the whine and gloat. Shame, could have been interesting.

Maybe something like a WAR server where Kingdoms are the same people, but all provinces are generated before each war randomly (but same Race/pers on each side) eg each Kingdom would randomly get 5 Orcs, 3 Faery, 4 Avian etc etc. With a Built random WPA/TPA etc
Then you get 24hrs to Build/train etc and work out a strat. Monarch can assign Kingdom members to whatever Province best suits. Then to war!

That would be pretty neat. But then again I do like wars :)

[Madchess]

Been competing a bit against the top this age where I hit my province up to the size between the biggest warring kingdoms and the growth kingdoms at one point, and I can say there is plenty of top kingdom provinces with little mechanical understanding outside their immidiately field of vision, lots of filler material with stagnated builds. The remaining top growth kingdoms achieve their goals through leadership, dicipline and organisation, not nessesarily because they have the best individual players.

[coss]

Been competing a bit against the top this age where I hit my province up to the size between the biggest warring kingdoms and the growth kingdoms at one point, and I can say there is plenty of top kingdom provinces with little mechanical understanding outside their immidiately field of vision, lots of filler material with stagnated builds. The remaining top growth kingdoms achieve their goals through leadership, dicipline and organisation, not nessesarily because they have the best individual players.

Anyone can play with 20% forts and training grounds and try to hit on 50 dpa while keeping 300 dpa once a day. Problems start when you piss off someone and they start to actually take you serious ... for 2-3 days or so. Most players that play in top I BET YOU are way better than you think they are and definitely better than you think you are;)

[Lowed420]

Yeah, can hope the player base increases again to those number or more one day!

Would take alot to get back to those numbers from ages 15-30, 80k+, the good days....

[bdbcoyote]

After being in top 10 for the last 3 or 4 ages, I am going back to a kingdom I was with before going to a top 10 kingdom. Top 10 is tough and requires a lot of discipline, time and skill set. Once you find yourself running out of time its time to go back to something less than top 10. Top 5 is even more crazy, usually only make it to 6 or 7. That Top 5 is the hardest to break and its very competitive in its own right. But most top 10 are willing to accept new players and people always leave to go back into a retirement kingdom status due to work, family or other things that makes it hard to play 9 hours a day straight or more or having 15 or more log ins. Just my thoughts, if you got time just send them a message and learn the ways of the top, the more people that learn it the better the opportunity and skill sets for other kingdoms to break into it and make it more competitive. Have a great day!

[Goodwitch]

lol @ welcoming...

[absalomon_GO]

Good obseationrv Rince, should be like 25x5 people but only 5 post and 120 are mute.

[Madchess]

@coss Well my point is many players in top kingdoms makes bad calls and have to rely on their kingdom fellors to help them out, wether it is giving relations, hitting bad targets or sending counter productive messages to people who can and will hurt them or thinking they are better than everyone else just because they play in a top kingdom.

True most would do better than average if they got tossed into the deep end and was left without either kingdom or leadership, but there is also a lot of players from these kingdoms that would be doing less good, especially if you toss them into a warring kingdom or ghetto. If they can't let go of the "I'm better than everyone else" mentality they will be running linear strategies in situations where they are bound to fail, and they are the players most likely to cause trouble for their new team.

Good individual players are the ones that can utilize the most factors of the game to their own advantage, if size and fear of retaliations is the only aspects you can utilize to your own advantage then you are only doing good when you are in such a position.

[coss]

@coss Well my point is many players in top kingdoms makes bad calls and have to rely on their kingdom fellors to help them out, wether it is giving relations, hitting bad targets or sending counter productive messages to people who can and will hurt them or thinking they are better than everyone else just because they play in a top kingdom.

True most would do better than average if they got tossed into the deep end and was left without either kingdom or leadership, but there is also a lot of players from these kingdoms that would be doing less good, especially if you toss them into a warring kingdom or ghetto. If they can't let go of the "I'm better than everyone else" mentality they will be running linear strategies in situations where they are bound to fail, and they are the players most likely to cause trouble for their new team.

Good individual players are the ones that can utilize the most factors of the game to their own advantage, if size and fear of retaliations is the only aspects you can utilize to your own advantage then you are only doing good when you are in such a position.

There are bad players in top as well, you are right but what you are not right about is the ability of a top player to perform in a non-top kd. Don't forget top wars as well and it does it at a different level than the warring kds. What makes top kds win against warring kds most of the times are their players and how they understand the game. All warring kds know 1 thing only: try to keep 10-15 t/m safe while get their few attackers hit to hell. Reason why they almost never manage to get in top is because these t/ms can;t whore sh!t so as a kd they can't succeed. Top kds on the other hand know how to adapt and war in different ways not just by starting with 10 t/m and trying to keep them safe. These t/ms usually become food for the whoring kds first half of the age and the warring kds start to call the big guys bottom feeders and try to FSU. What they do not understand is that where there are gains there is no bottom feed. Same goes with the solo provinces trying to grow and that use shady methods like hit in active hostiles when top has armies out and is busy with other things. Happened to me a lot to get hit by noobs and then have them coming to the forums and complaining when they get hit down after the conflict was done.

[Elit]

There are bad players in top as well, you are right but what you are not right about is the ability of a top player to perform in a non-top kd.

Its not absolute true. What make TOP kds TOP is leaders. When they leave KD most from time its turn to just another ghetto. I can give many examples but will limit it to BB after flogger left :)

About players, i have see good/TOP players doing terrible in ghetto mode play. For example Mango/Octo/Lennox (yes PB leader) and other. From other side i have see Maclean (another top PB leader) Goodly and other doing very good in ghetto mode play. So you cant generalize all good players do well in ghetto mode play.