Age 73 Power Rankings

[Chris121]

Looks good. Thanks for all your work on this. It's quite interesting comparing your first chart at baron honour to the final chart - quite a lot of substantial movements. I'm not at all convinced by dryad being bottom although I suppose it is partly a reflection of no personality. For example I'd run dryad tact, which should help it catch up with orc. But it will still show as a long way behind orc cleric, which bugs me ;p

[RattleHead]

hey np! I am not playing as much this time of year because of other responsibilities, but I still need to spend the energy somewhere, I guess!

As for Dryad, other than big MPA numbers, everything else is kind of working against them and I guess it adds up.

Less kills when they attack, slower attack time even with QF (even Tact+QF only gets you to 0.956 base attack time, and up to 69% on the final Agg score, vs non personality everyone else), and then the NWPA may not matter as much for randoms, but on a KD scale; that inflated NW versus a KD of similar NW but using Orcs, Undead, or Avians is going to be a challenge.

[Ethan]

I know they are far enough apart to be fairly incompatible, but my rankings *do* use BL, Fanat, GP, and TW in their calculations. This is part of why Faery is ranking so high - it is being credited with +15% OME without any NW behind it (and a bit of +DME too). Since I'm not accounting for speed/gains, QF doesn't matter in my calc, and things like CS/RM/MA don't factor since they don't directly translate to mTPA or mWPA - any direct mods or impacts on sci (looking at you, UD) do apply their mod and trim down the raw amount needed by a tiny bit. That sci mod is why my UD are so middling I think, while lack of gains modeling explains Dryad still being in the running. (I said *raw power* for a reason in describing my version.)

Other funny tidbit about mine - I think I slapped a 10% sci bonus in for humans. Basically bringing them up to the soft cap instead of the 90% I was assuming for everyone else. The still don't make the cut even at +35% I think, but they get a lot closer if they can push sci enough.

[StratOcastle]

Dryads I see almost as "out of war" for striking deep into enemy t/ms. In war, I'd imagine they're somewhat clunky. But for out of war deterrence you could build something special.

[RattleHead]

Ok, I came up with this for an economy section;



I think it seems about right, maybe Human is undersold a bit... But really 20% BE + free construction is a huge boon, and Free Draft is one of my personal favorite perks.

I made the UD and Dryad acre save 5% because with full science that is about the %acres farms would take up. An early Age setup I might credit them with 10% instead.

The 2nd to final column "Econ" is calculated by multiplying all the preceding 7 econ columns together, and then taking the 7th root of that number. Perks like free building construction or free draft become 2.00 rather than 0.00 in order to accommodate this calculation. You can also see in this column that Bocan and Dark Elf are the baseline economies (sitting at 1.00), with no direct buffs or debuffs, with Faery lagging behind them just a bit(ToG is not accounted for, what is the average ToG these days 25-30% of daily income? 1.3*0.85 is probably the most I would be willing to give them for that).

This section does move Human up the attacker charts, to about a 60% rating, just below All-Spec Bocan, and above Dark Elf. Now the struggle is to make it fit on one sheet :P

[RattleHead]

Ok I just hide the G/L columns and it fits alright, depending how important you find each section... Also this version of the chart does not include spell effects that are on the previously posted image of the entire chart.

[Chris121]

(ToG is not accounted for, what is the average ToG these days 25-30% of daily income? 1.3*0.85 is probably the most I would be willing to give them for that).

Yeah, I usually use 25-30% as a rule of thumb. But note that it will be multiplied by other mods, so on the assumptions you are using, it should be multiplied by honour and income science.

Another improvement to this section would be to consider wages costs based on the elite/spec make-up (ie those running full elites have higher wages).

Instinctively I wonder if free draft / build are over-valued in gc terms here - ie whether, for example, in gc terms, human wages being factored at 1.3 is proportionate to free build / draft at 2. I literally don't know the answer, and I get that you would have to make more assumptions to check (eg how much land built per day; what draft speed to draft on and what peas PA we are looking at). Clearly at the time that you want to switch your entire build to pump, then dwarf bonus is much more valuable in gc terms than on a normal day.

Interestingly we've now reached the race I would have been minded to pick being not only last but 50% of the first one....lol.

Edit: You could include dwarf +100% food in this given you have included undead/dryad food bonuses. And maybe human +30% rune costs?

[RattleHead]

The 1.33_ for Human is simply the inverse of its actual 0.75 bonus (1/0.75 = 1.33_).

Dwarf free build and use of credits for razing means quite a bit, IMO. Even off a lost War a Dwarf can coast on those credits for the cost of razing for quite some time in my experience, and like I said before the Free Draft is one of my favorite perks, I think it is highly undervalued in the game in general... to me -25% wages is nice, but really it doesn't change the game for a Race. It's just a beefed up, permanent IA (without the training speed bonus).

It is situational, but to me +30% Income and -25% Wages depends on you having peasants, or a large army to really benefit from one or the other at any given time, they are somewhat exclusive of each other to the extent that to get the most out of your +30% income, you are likely not deeply drafted, and therefore not making the most of your -25% wages. Free draft, or Construction is working at full effect all the time. I won't say its perfect, but at least to me those comparisons seem fair.

I see your point on Spec v Elite on wages, I will contemplate how to weigh that properly across the Races. Some have 2:1 Elite:Spec ratio, some are 2:1 Spec:Elite, and then the All Spec as well. Elite wages being 1.4 that of Specs, so;

on the builds with 2:1 E:S ratios they would get a base wage modifier of [(2*1.4)+(1*1)]/3 = 1.266_
2:1 S:E ratios would be [(2*1)+(1*1.4)]/3 = 1.133_
And all spec would be (3*1)/3 = 1

Now since these represent higher wages, and thus a 'penalty' rather than a wages bonus I will have to invert them the same way I did with the Human perk;

2e:1s = 0.79
2s:1e = 0.88
3s = 1.00

I will update the chart a little later on this evening, unless someone wants to poke holes in my logic here before then!

As for Dryad, I'm sorry lol ... but I think everyone knows they are built to be some sort of awe-inspiring gimp. They certainly have their uses as StratO has pointed out, and I am sure they are enormously fun to play despite what my chart says!

[RattleHead]

Ok here it is;



So for the wages, the all-Spec Bocan is the baseline 1.00, and the 2e:1s ratio builds (Orc, Avian, Human, Dwarf, Dryad) end up at 0.79, Human then has the modifier of 1.33_, which brings it up to 1.05.

There is almost 0 space between the UD builds, although this change has made the top/bottom switch positions.

While Human doesn't take any further of a hit in the Econ section (they remain at 0.955 as compared to the max), but DE and Bocan gain enough based on their primarily Spec wages to overtake Human again on the overall rating.

I think the Econ rankings themselves seem to make sense in the general order, at least. Dryad lurking the bottom again, but I feel its accurate that their base economy isn't as bad as Faery's, but it also not going to be quite as easy to work with as the baseline All Spec Bocan, simply based on that extra bit of wages. Everyone is in a pretty tight pack from 87-92%, but then the three with real direct econ perks (Dwarf, Orc, and Human) are riding high.

[Chris121]

Looks good. Maybe for next age you can add ToG and the other saving/using additional land bonuses in the economy section (dwarf food, human runes).

Re human/orc etc, yeah I appreciated that human is just the inverse of what the bonus in game actually is. My point was more about the values of 2 for dwarf and orc, which are just guesses. But I do accept your rationale for why they are valuable. On orc, I guess I would say there are 2 aspects to it, one is the economic bonus of not paying to draft and the other is the strategic bonus in being able to draft very fast. I'd be inclined for the chart to measure the former in the economy section and leave individuals to take into account the flexibility of being able to draft fast. But even that is difficult as assumptions are required and for all I know we might do it and find 2 is very close :)

[RattleHead]

Yes I supposed I forgot the extra food consumption on Dwarf and the runes on Human, but of course that is only going to make things worse for them.

For Dwarf, on the builds I have in the sheet, it takes 6% more farms to feed than the other Races, so I'll put a 0.94 mod in for them on acre save. Towers is a bit trickier, because people won't all run the same amount, or even similar amounts necessarily. For now I am going to call it a 3% (0.97 acre save) loss for them based on a figure of 10% towers (they need 30% more to generate the same casting ability/tick) that I pulled out of thin air :P

Draft and Build factor is a bit of a guess, I think its an educated one though. They both have 100% bonus to each of those categories, and the fact that Free Draft/Build has multiple perks associated with them makes me feel like its warranted.

That said, I am working on tweaking some sections of the chart. I am looking at different ways to evaluate the Econ section. If I use addition instead of multiplying the factors, I can switch Dwarf Build and Orc Draft to 0, and have those columns be subtracted from the total. This creates a larger spread over the Econ section (70-100% as opposed to 90-100% range we had previously), so, while the Order remains mostly the same within the Econ section, it has a greater effect on the total charts (Human and Dwarf make some moves).

I added a MP/NW column in order to soften to NWPA blow to Dryad/bonus to Bocan. This addition moves Dryad up into the middle of the pack, under UD/Avian. (Without the MP/NW%, Dryad would remain at the bottom of the chart, with 84.5%, Faery 2nd to last 85.8%.)

I have also changed the final %Max calculate to also be a sum, rather than a product of all the previous sections. This does not have a huge effect on the position of the Races relative to each other, but it closes the range from lowest rating to highest by a pretty good margin. The bottom rating with this setup is around 85%, as opposed to being below 50%.

Playing with the idea of different weights for each section, but I think that would require more input from folks with more insight than me, so I leave them as base for now.



I can also provide blown-out version of each section, but since the Age has begun and all that is already available in this thread, I think this one should suffice.

EDIT: I am going to do another iteration with Human at the soft caps, and everyone else ~83% of max. Here is the logic I will use to represent the science generation bonus;

It takes 30 Alchemy, 30 Tools, 38 Housing, 30 Production, 38 Military, 31 Crime, and 32 Channeling for 229 total Professors to reach this level. Each Race starts with 30 scientists. All other things being equal, non-Humans should generate 80% (1/1.25=0.8) of the 199 needed for Humans to reach the # needed for Caps first. This puts non-Humans at ~159 (199/1.25=159.2) scientists generated, for a total of 189. 189 / 229 = 0.825 or 82.5% of Human science. I understand that this make a false equivalency between reaching professor level and scientist generation, also the fact that before the minimum number of professors reach professor, extra novice's are likely to bump you up to caps anyways...

[RattleHead]

Ok, so here is the MP section blown out so you can see what happened with the changes I made to science levels. (I neglected to note this on the far left column, this correction has been made for any future runs, hopefully next Age :P)



and here is the list of all the totals, sorted by the agg;



This is Human more or less at its pinnacle, its a steady decline to what the previous charts show after reaching this point, I would say. Human strong with its Econ boost, as well as Science advantage early... but they will be caught up to and overtaken by most.

[Chris121]

Good changes I think. I'll have to trust you on the human sci logic as I got lost with the maths and haven't got much time now, but it sounds about right. However it doesn't factor in abducts, so realistically they will not have as much of a bonus as you allow for.

Weighting the categories is a good idea but I suspect very hard and bordering on impossible in in practice unless we first decide what the ranking is for. For example, is it for war? Or non war? And even the war category can be broken down further: is the primary aim war wins? or growth via warring? etc People might just have to figure that out themselves. But that is the reason I remain happy with my hypothetical choice of dryad - some categories where it is not so good are not ones I am concerned about for warring with the set up that I would hypothetically use.

[Chris121]

Btw is that last chart with or without spells? If you already have the data ready, please could we see the one with spells (if that isn't it)?

[RattleHead]

It is without spells. If I open this thing up and let it sit there long enough, A spells one might get done this weekend :P

Yes the Human sci buff is strong, and I didn't factor abducts, because technically they can abduct too, they can even abduct other Humans. I agree not many Humans are likely to find themselves in this position, but its certainly possible, and I imagine some dedicated players will do it even faster. Most will probably end up in the position where Human has been represented in the previous charts all Age, never enjoying that brief, glimmering, moment of strength.

Agreed about the weight, and that people need to infer what they can about what they want to do.

I like the chart of all the final% for this, You can see that other than the Races who are meant more for TM roles, most are fairly strong in at least 2 categories, certainly each is near the tops in at least 1, and middling in the others. Humans are more well-rounded rating 75-85 everywhere, keeping in mind that their Military power can only fade from this point as others catch up in Science. Which makes sense I guess- they should be a 'vanilla' type Race in a fantasy setting imo.

As you say, you can pick out the parts that are important to you, and hopefully make some (slightly better)informed decisions.