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Thread: Age 73 Power Rankings

  1. #16
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    I think this all is very interesting. I would have to see how the categories are weight in the aggregate number. Somehow it is using networth efficiency to move a subpar attacking race like the Bocan ahead of Dryad with the strongest elite.

  2. #17
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    I think they are weighted equally, but what is happening is where there is a big variance in a category (eg from 100% down to 60%) then that has a much bigger impact than when the races are roughly around the same level.

    So BE and gains has a bigger impact on the ones who are far from the median in those category.

  3. #18
    Forum Addict RattleHead's Avatar
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    Yes they are all weighted equally, as there is no agreed way to balance the categories I'm using. If I just adjusted them til they looked 'right' I fear my preferences would slip into the mix and it would be for naught.

    These include 0 Spells! This could be tedious to cross reference who has access to what, but I will look into it for future runs.

    I was thinking about what exactly this chart is showing the other day. Maybe not representing the strongest Attacker, or the best Thief/Mystic, but rather which Race is most purely dedicated to that niche. You can look on it as a ranking for ease of fulfilling your role's duty! Won't necessarily be the best, as everyone will play their setup a little different.

    For example; Bocan may not be particularly strong militarily, but it would surely not be difficult to get one trained up and ready to fight, and then it has the nice NW benfits along the way to help it.

    Orc seems logical with its gains as well as Elite strength. While Dryad has the power, its attack time and insane NW makes it less ideal in a pure attacking role.

  4. #19
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    I eagerly await Faery jumping up then when spells are added :)

    In seriousness though, if we don't include spells faery (to take the obvious example) would never realistically be top unless it was so insanely overpowered that it was top even without all the spells.

    To make it easier, you could just include the most important ones and note which ones are / are not included. For example, invisibility / mage's fury has only a small impact for attackers, but BL/Fanat/QF/GP will make pretty big changes to the rankings.


    Re what it is showing, I agree with you, it is basically showing which is the best at each of (and then on aggregate) the 4 specific aspects of the game that you/we decided to look at. For example, in theory we could add a category for sustain during war (enemy casualties / own casualties) and perhaps one for economy etc etc but it would become a lot of work and still hard to capture all of the bonuses. Personally I think BE is over-represented in importance here, but people can make their own conclusions (eg, if I had to choose between two provs, where A had 60% of Bs offence but B had 60% of A's BE, I would find that choice very easy :)

  5. #20
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    I appreciate what was done and I keep forgetting that there are no spells and no personalities included which could further adjust rankings. But including all that would require so much work.

  6. #21
    Forum Addict RattleHead's Avatar
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    I agree on the weight of BE, and for that matter NWPA is a bit much as well, given that NW is not the only factor anymore for gains on hits, and the effect of NW disparity on Ops has been reduced as well.

    I am set up to track all individual spells, as well as kills/casualties on attack and defence separately. So it can be done, just won't have as quick of a turnaround on my end with all the little details included.

    Also, thinking about Bocan's WT perk... I could come up with an average %WT that we could agree people use in wars through the Age. Sometimes people run high, sometimes people run none at all, though. Anyway whatever % I came up with, I'd run that by the average BE to get the WT effects (15% WT @ 75% BE = ~20% catch chance[0.8], ~30% reduction of losses[0.7]) and use that to build a rough TPA mod for them.

    The best two off top of my head would be inverse of the average, or the product of the two WT effects...

    1 / [(0.8+0.7)/2] = 1 / 0.75 = 1.33_
    or
    1 / [0.8*0.7] = 1 / 0.56 = 1.78

    of course the WT% could be different, too... This would really push them up the TM charts, to keep up with Faery spells perhaps.

    Anyway, I will test out the level of drudgery on doing spells, etc. :P


    Quote Originally Posted by mpd View Post
    I appreciate what was done and I keep forgetting that there are no spells and no personalities included which could further adjust rankings. But including all that would require so much work.
    @mpd TY mate, ya its by no means a perfect scale, but I think it can be useful to maybe see where a certain personality may fit best? For example, if you put the Tact perk onto a Dryad, it moves up into second place around 83%.
    Last edited by RattleHead; 13-08-2017 at 17:07. Reason: mpd reply

  7. #22
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    Re your bocun idea: Good idea. I would put it as a damage mod rather than a tpa mod. So turn the WT lower damage / % chance of catch into a single % lower damage (ie some ops fail = 0 damage, the ones that succeed is =x damage so on average damage is reduced by y), and then apply that to damage category. Not sure if I explained that very well - in a rush atm.

  8. #23
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    I'm not of the feeling you need to expand the math we can do in our head, like faery spell effect. I'm not saying you shouldn't illustrate the projection, but that the base remain the main chart.
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  9. #24
    Forum Addict RattleHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    Re your bocun idea: Good idea. I would put it as a damage mod rather than a tpa mod. So turn the WT lower damage / % chance of catch into a single % lower damage (ie some ops fail = 0 damage, the ones that succeed is =x damage so on average damage is reduced by y), and then apply that to damage category. Not sure if I explained that very well - in a rush atm.
    Ya that makes sense to list as damage rather than as a TPA mod, but the effect on the chart would be the same either way, non? I think what you describe is best matched by the inverse of the product (worked out to 1.78 above).

    @StratO; Conveniently enough, I haven't gotten into it yet. I am thinking I could make it as a separate 'alternate' final total that included the spells, you could see a before and after that way.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by StratOcastle View Post
    I'm not of the feeling you need to expand the math we can do in our head, like faery spell effect. I'm not saying you shouldn't illustrate the projection, but that the base remain the main chart.
    I'm not convinced I could do the maths in my head. Sure, I could adjust the opa, but I couldn't adjust accounting for 2:1 off/def, change the base tpa/wpa etc and, even if i ignore those things, I couldn't then re-calculate the % max's in my head and the aggregates. Maybe on a calculator, but it wouldn't be easy or quick to make all the adjustments for one race, let alone all of the races.


    Quote Originally Posted by RattleHead View Post
    Ya that makes sense to list as damage rather than as a TPA mod, but the effect on the chart would be the same either way, non?
    I don't think it would necessarily be the same effect on the chart. You have an assumed tpa so applying it as a tpa mod would just give you a lower base tpa which means more peasants on your chart, which lowers nwPA a bit so impacts %max 2 (my guess is it has a small impact as the tpa has a relatively low impact on nw/acre overall)

    Applying it as an increase in damage impacts % max 3. My guess is in this particular case, applying it as damage moves bocun up more than if it is applied as tpa (which is effectively nwPA in this chart).

    But more importantly, I think damage would properly reflect what the bocun advantage is - it doesn't allow you to run a lower tpa, it allows you to do more damage to people with WTs.


    Quote Originally Posted by RattleHead View Post
    I think what you describe is best matched by the inverse of the product (worked out to 1.78 above).
    I'm a bit slower than you on the maths, but yes I think with those WT/BE figures (and ignoring the damage penalty), bocun is doing 78% more damage than non bocan (which is far bigger than I had appreciated before this discussion!).

  11. #26
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    Ahh, when I was saying tpa mod i meant just in the TM chart, not within the actual build of the province. I get you now, we on the same page!

    That 1.78 dmg is before the Bocan 0.85 nerf so its actually more like 1.5... and that is assuming your enemy has 15% WTs... if they had no WTs, than you would be doing 85% dmg of others. I entered it in the chart, but I tweaked it to 10% WTs as the metric, the final mod comes to 1.23 after that, but Bocan also has extra stealth, so it still climbs up over Faery in this scenario.

    I also tacked in Kills & Casualties for a Sustain rating. Undeads 50% losses gets nerfed to 25% because its only on outbound attacks.

    It looks like the spells-inclusive one will have to be completely separate for the sake of my sanity, if I am able to :P
    -I will omit spells that are common to all races, and I will assume these provinces do not have a Paladin friend, so we would see effect of things like Greater Protection, Quick Feet, Town Watch, Bloodlust, Fanaticism, Invis, Mage's Fury, aaaaand Pitfalls. (I think that covers all the applicable spells that aren't universal?)

    Here is one with the Sustain section, as well as the cobbled Bocan mod implemented, all other figures remain the same as the most recent posting. Does NOT include spells.



    Dryad suffers further!
    Last edited by RattleHead; 13-08-2017 at 20:58. Reason: removed agg from the spell list

  12. #27
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    That all sounds good re the spells. Having a separate sheet is probably ideal for the user given Strato, for example, would prefer without spells whereas I think the one with the spells is most meaningful (although I accept that if Pally is used well, in theory everyone could have most of those spells). I think your list captured all relevant spells assuming that we stick to looking offensively (ie CS is not captured, but I'd go with Strato on that one and let people imagine what CS would add). If at some point you include economy then ToG should ideally go in too.

    2 random requests / points:

    - Could you add a peas per acre in the TM chart? Doesn't need to be part of the ranking but it would be useful for seeing how extremely drafted each race is to reach your assumptions.
    - I think assuming max mercs is a bit extreme. I'd be inclined to use a realistic prisoners number (with the assumption being that prisoners are used on each attack and not stored up) but without the mercs. It probably won't change much though except make dryad look worse (again).

  13. #28
    Forum Addict RattleHead's Avatar
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    Ya I did forget CS now that you mention it, although it isn't a direct mod its similar to WT catch% i think. At the same time spells like MF aren't just mOWPA, it has a negative side too. and Invis is offencive but adds no thief defence as far as I know. As I was doing this 'Spells' version I went strictly by mOWPA and mOTPA.

    Yes I can add a peasant column next go around, but the BE should be a good indicator of the Offence. Off the top of my head on this 'spells' version Bocan was just over 2 peons/acre, Dark Elf just under 5, and Faery was well over 8.

    The bit of extra population from MF/Invis, or the slight increase in defence from TW I don't think really makes much difference on Faery, its that ability to cast QF and BL every time, should you choose, that really moves these guys up the chart this time around!



    Max Mercs because I just need to know what the max flex is!! And yes you are right, the Mercs does benefit Dryad on the MP%Max, so removing it would shame them further

    Including Econ is tricky, so far in the TM section at least, the BE is a fair indicator of economic potential, for attackers its one of the controls since I set the # of peasants. Other than that, perhaps you can just do * 1.3 on Humans final score perhaps to get an idea of their bonus, but GC is only as valuable as the plan for its expenditure!
    Last edited by RattleHead; 13-08-2017 at 22:27.

  14. #29
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    Yes, CS is 25% auto catch. But the difficult part for this chart is it where to apply that. With Bocan it was fine because it is the one doing the opping (hence damage mod), but with CS it would be a reverse damage mod (ie less damage on the race with CS) but there is nowhere to show that.

    Invis is only on offensive tpa, yes. I agree it makes sense just to look at offensive tpa / wpa.

    Yes, perhaps it is unfair to include pitfalls because in reality, someone will cast it and then all the other races benefit from it anyway, so it's different from all of the other bonuses/spells that we are looking at.

  15. #30
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    I updated the previous one to not include PF for Faery haha

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