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Thread: UD/mystic build

  1. #106
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    No hospitals make it far too easy for an opponent to disable an undead.
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  2. #107
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    I think hosps are good for a certain kind of undead play, but not necessarily all. I personally like a high dspec undead, with forts + hosps, it's sturdy, can still run a high opa, is a ***** to take down. The alternative I see often, is pure glass cannon. Max out that OPA, rely on TGs, GS, Rax, and WT/CS. The hosps don't matter if you are never getting hit at home, and aren't getting ambushed. True an ambush against no hosps can kill 10% offense or whatever, but it's certainly possible to make that unrealistic during war. ANY type of attacker gets ruined caught armies home early in war, later in war undead and orcs have it rough, when avians/humans can certainly use elites as def a-ok.

  3. #108
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    It seems to me that both builds would ideally be incorporated into the overall strategy. The larger undeads, who are most exposed to the risk of being NSed/chained, would want higher defense, hospitals, WTs, forts, etc while the smaller undeads, who really aren't at risk, would be more focused on optimizing their offensive capacity. Additionally, your larger provinces could retain slightly higher percentages of rax to ensure the top end of the wave is complete before the lower nw provinces come online to finish.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000 View Post
    The hosps don't matter if you are never getting hit at home, and aren't getting ambushed.
    You aren't in controll of what your opponents are doing. Using no hospitals gives opponents the option to camp your top offense undead to kill off offense fast. Usually not a great idea to give your opponent access to tactics that are hard to recover from.
    Last edited by Uhm hoi; 28-09-2017 at 08:29.
    -Nox-

    Now playing a well prepared bacon rogue. Seasoned the little piggie with peper, thyme and rosemary. Put in the oven with potatoes under it so those get baked in the seasoned fat dripping down. Asparagus with cherrytomatoes, olives and basil on the side. Hmmmmmm.

    546706 total books in Palem's superfun uhm hoi challenge.
    Made utopian faeries fly.
    Age 72 war win crown and honour crown.

  5. #110
    Postaholic RattleHead's Avatar
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    Isn't a good chunk of UD offence immune to @home hits? what kind of OS:Elite ratio do you guys have?

    I haven't played UD in a few Ages, but people I am seeing this Age seem heavy on the OS, I am in the bottom half of the KD ranks so maybe its just a bit of fear to continue hitting for acres once you reach a certain size.

  6. #111
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    100% elite is the goal. It definitely requires thoughtful prep though so most people just use ospecs.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreidelFan View Post
    100% elite is the goal. It definitely requires thoughtful prep though so most people just use ospecs.
    Depends on the Persona; for an attacker most times best to be full elite if possible, our Mystics with 70% Opsecs can enjoy the NW decrease and do most of the offense growth in war once the chains begin.

    -DM <3

  8. #113
    Postaholic RattleHead's Avatar
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    Ya i understand you want 100% Elites... please show me an SoT of an Undead with fully drafted, 100% Elite offence, that didn't have some sort of land drop and/or acre trading deal.

  9. #114
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    I'm not sure I have the stealth to sift through that much garbage in hopes of finding the paradigm. If you're artificially restricting your options there are ways to go about it without directly setting up a land drop. The most common is to just train pure ospecs while oow and obtain the target epa before releasing and converting them to dspecs/thieves for conflict. This way has the added benefit of collecting buttons which you could presumably capitalize on by opping while training up. Another route is to rely on intra propaganda operations (assuming rogue) on your own kingdoms' elite-training races (bocans would be nice if they were better). You just need enough time before your next conflict to remedy the resultant reallocation of wizards. A slight variation on that would be to initiate a "hostile" with a friendly kingdom and prop eachothers' elite-training races, but what's the point? Unless intra prop doesn't work anymore....

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattleHead View Post
    Isn't a good chunk of UD offence immune to @home hits? what kind of OS:Elite ratio do you guys have?

    I haven't played UD in a few Ages, but people I am seeing this Age seem heavy on the OS, I am in the bottom half of the KD ranks so maybe its just a bit of fear to continue hitting for acres once you reach a certain size.
    I'm running pretty consistently around 2:1 offspec:elite, with no hospitals, and during war I've not gotten hit once with armies home. This just seems to naturally be around where it always ends up (2:1 ratio I mean). Though I am playing sage so i've been abducting a lot oow. Granted, my armies are usually home for <5 minutes unless a wave time changed or something. Though maybe if i was in the top, they would take advantage of this 5 minute window... I just haven't seen the necessity for hospitals yet, and we have 10 undeads doing the same thing I am.

  11. #116
    Postaholic RattleHead's Avatar
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    Ya from my recollection if you can get to 3/4 of your offence as Elite through converts, you are doing pretty good... but that's as a heavy attacker, like you say an UD/Mystic might have abduct priorities over acres/Elite conversion.

  12. #117
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    Hospitals on UD is not only about being hit army home in war - but also about defensive troop losses and hit army home in hostile. No hosps on UD cripples your kingdoms versatility in hostile, and prolongs recovery periods being waved OOW. For low end kingdoms no hospitals on UD is fine of course. In the low end any race/pers/build is frankly quite ok.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    No hosps on UD cripples your kingdoms versatility in hostile, and prolongs recovery periods being waved OOW.
    Debatable. GBP, you may take 2 hits to your prov in a wave, 50% of those casualties are now soldiers, easily retrained. If the wave looks like it could lead to war, I won't even retrain the defense and save the creds, I'm most dangerous the closer I am to land defense ;D. Personally I'd rather have those acres set aside for more TGs and GS, and Unis if OOW. I guess Hospitals come down to personal preference and playstyle more so than optimal efficiency.

    -DM <3

  14. #119
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    Efficiency doesn't allow us the luxury of having preferences.

  15. #120
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    It's still strategy.

    To be fair, when I ran undead cleric I use to run hospitals and I got loads of criticism. Tadpole is quite a smart fellow and the top played a different way; more uniform in its excellence. As morbidly sustainable as an undead cleric can be, it was the troops at home I was thinking about.

    As a guy who's run individual strats in big picture war I still think a myriad of strats are viable. Somebody here referred to camping and that can be more than an opportunity tactic. You can expect certain builds to be admirable campers and more so, particular players.

    When I ran undead cleric, in most cases, I was running a relay offense which is also a source of criticism. But this because most of our warring is the result of brainwashing players into thinking that waves are everything. Waves are not everything.

    Waves are the equivalent of spearhead formations in battle. That's cool, but as a war gamer for the past 40 years I came to a appreciate my flanks. I'm sure there are brilliant strategists who simply aren't sharing their knowledge or can't execute better because of activity or player savvy. My stand, strategically, has always been you wave within a variable of efficient gain.

    Let's say your assessing a homogenous enemy of say undead tacs with a couple paladins, rogues and mystics. The first concern I have is in stealth expenditure for intel. To overcome this logistical truth you have to modify your offensive approach. I'm into t/m crushing to get to the promised land the fastest, but a full spearhead pattern will get you torn to pieces.

    So what I use to do was mock avian style and play to nw zones, as an individual. Sadly, it's hard to convey to a brainwashed(jokingly) majority that you're helping them in their overall quest for victory. While I've garnered criticism for relay tactics and zone defense, I've experimented with this at top levels: vs FS, Green, Sparta. What I'm doing is attacking campers, curbing acreage which affects gains and isolating dangerous chain feeding opponents. You don't want or need a full squad, just enough guys to control the obvious strength of undead tac.

    The gaps will generally present themselves because waving and chaining is so prevalent, but you can create gaps through selective countering. The most fundamental relay tactic I've used is to trad march 2 enemy provinces below me and ambush 2 provinces above my acre/nw. This can result in chain stalling. Chain stalling is not a myth.

    In top(ish) war the question is identifiable threat. This is something we don't talk about. A top guy will say I'm presenting no threat by relay tactics, spreading my offense everywhere. This is true to the perception of the enemy, but a tactical opportunity for my kingdom. Presumption by your enemy is the catalyst of initiative: a new approach.

    When every attacker is basically running till they're dry you're playing into the flat logistics that cause so many kingdoms to lose before they even begin. In many wars I've found myself occupying a mid shelf controlling enemy attackers of every build type. I'm not a good builder but I know leverage. I've withstood late war NM and combined tactics to reestablish myself in that zone within hours. An ugly build can actually be good cardio.

    In the end my humble goals in war were kind of odd. My goal was to sustain the most attacks and still be in positive acres. I've been in wars where I was the 3rd highest land gainer and the 3rd most hit with only the trash defense chain victims below me. Once the enemy realizes what you're doing they desperately attempt to break you off, but this is often after the smoke has cleared. - Remember when I talked about undead sage? Well this is when I tell you about the rogue I was slow dripping amnesia on during the war.
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