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Thread: UD/mystic build

  1. #31
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    I agree with persain. CS is irrelevant on attacker as it is mvd off by any decent KD before ops start. Espionage is really nice, but nothing that can't be done by anyone else (albeit with a few thief losses). The ONLY value i see in tact is trying to get that second wave in before your opponent during war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by s0830887 View Post
    I agree with persain. CS is irrelevant on attacker as it is mvd off by any decent KD before ops start. Espionage is really nice, but nothing that can't be done by anyone else (albeit with a few thief losses). The ONLY value i see in tact is trying to get that second wave in before your opponent during war.
    Age 72 and before you got an attack times reduction of 20%. So after some hours in war you had 12*0.8=9.6h attack time. If you sync yourself with your kingdommates in a 12h attack rhythm, you can choose +2h for 5-8% gains (I think) and yout troops are back right after an tick, if you attack at x:30 hours. This means that you can raze your stables and rather easily calculate and manage your attack times in a way that keeps your horses out in the field from one tick to the next.
    Acres and BE fluctuations makes it really hard sometimes to do something similar with barracks.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by s0830887 View Post
    I agree with persain. CS is irrelevant on attacker as it is mvd off by any decent KD before ops start. Espionage is really nice, but nothing that can't be done by anyone else (albeit with a few thief losses). The ONLY value i see in tact is trying to get that second wave in before your opponent during war.
    And its cast back on.
    + then you have to burn runes and mana replacing it every time I put it back on if you dont fail and get it first cast .. and I got lots of mana and runes are easy to grow or ask for. Plus my kingom will not be just sitting around while you take time, mana, runes, to keep it down.

    We can tit for tat ways to deal with any strategy, but dismissing anything with.. "It can be dealt with this way by any decent KD" its silly.. everything can be dealt with by any decent KD.. but doing it in tandem on time every time is the rub and that is why we play this game.
    Last edited by tiggis; 15-08-2017 at 15:49.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uhm hoi View Post
    Persain, are you trolling or do you really not see the use of getting your second wave in before your opponent's so you can use your highest offense attackers in more t/m hits before they get chained? (Not before min time, before your opponent's second wave!) Or being able to hit in between your opponents attacks so you're hitting their lowered defense on army out vs them being forced to hit your higher defense on army in? Or the other tact bonusses, clear sight and not losing thieves on intel are not useful in your opinion either?
    If i full waved you with 18 attackers on a 16 hour attack time (decent # of hits will have gbp) and you push a button, get 2 full waves in before i can attack again, yes thats decently powerfull. However any competent kd can plan out a hostile or even an instant declare such that most of that damage can be mitigated for example ONE way could be
    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    My personal arguement is that i'd RATHER face tacts who are chaining me down faster. You are building my low end for me, you are seting me up so when i chain you im actually able to finish off chains better because i have that extra 1-2-3 small attackers. THose small attackers may not have enough offense to break hybrids or t/m's but they are perfect for chaining pure attackers. And if each of my chains ends with you at 400 after incoming land but your chains end with me at 500 after incoming guess what im gaining an advantage.
    As for no theives lost on INTEL or CS, you saying putting a spell on that requires 2-3 casts to MV or loosing a few theives to intell is on par with say -35% total military losses? 50% more converts on undead, dragon immunity, +1 general if warrior had that again? if you really think that and you have a say on your kds setup, then your kd is much weaker than it could be if it had different leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiggis View Post
    Tact a garbage pick?
    Yeah.. thats some stupid with bacon on it right there.
    You know i got made the strategy mod for a reason, i dont insult others and i try to clearly state good solid strategy. The funny thing is the game owners were asking me why i thought tact was terrible too because they think its incredibly strong. And i went though my arguments and they disagreed and explain why tact is strong. That explanation didn't help I fully understand how tact is supposed to be use, i understand its benefits, the nuance it gives the way you use extra speed on a core as a whole to gain advantage...i just fundamentally disagree that its a good pick.

    When others hear my arguments and dont agree i always hear some wishy washy reason as to why im simple wrong, or like u just get called stupid. The closest thing i've herd to argements are like Uhm hoi or the owners arguments "but that extra speed helps u on declare", "that extra speed gives you another wave by min time"......what i dont hear is how you translate any of that into a winning strategy. Speed doesn't "win", If u want to win via attacking you have to translate ability to attack faster into the t/m-hybrid-unbrekable battle. And i can give basic easy examples to illustrate why that speed doesnt help u win. i.e.
    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    If you took a 100% simplictic aproach of each kd chains 2 attackers/wave at the 48-50 hour mark a tact kd has chained 10 to a normal kds what 8? How is that helping.
    Quote Originally Posted by tiggis View Post
    Tact with -attack time bonus, only needing 1 thief for intel (no losses), and CS is incredible for an attacker in a warring kingdom.
    Attacking speed is god for undead... if your worried about getting out of sync with your other non tacts, add hour or two.. voila now your speed bonus is a gains bonus.

    You like Undead Mage.. but find Undead tact garbage.. are you drunk?
    No undead tact isnt garbage, tact is garbage. Undead tact is a meh whatever pick simply because undead is strong right now. However if you kd is using undead tact as a "core" attacker en masse you would instantly improve your kds setup this age if you switched to war hero.

    If alternatively you are running 2-3 undead tacts and plan to make them go undead tact+lots of rax and position them small and try to use them to consonantly lap the enemy trying to chain extra deep i would argue the 15% attack time bonus of undead isnt enough to matter. u'd be better off with the -25% attack time on avain cleric since both have similar offense and sustain but avain gets you attacking even faster. Heck i'd actually debate saying Avain tact in that roll would be viable (and stronger) as u are almost always garenteed then to be able to hit a chained prov and "Finish" them off nicely. BUT that again is a support roll for a kd and 1-2 of them is enough just like undead mystic (4-5 though is probubly beter there) is a support race to pull some pressure off the mana of real hybrid+t/ms via a little NM/MS/FB before losing wpa. Thing is in the case of a support roll you are actually purposefully running a worse combination than the standard OP in hopes that the gimmick can provide extra power to your kd overall, you arent simply picking the strongest personality possible.

    edit....
    Quote Originally Posted by tiggis View Post
    And its cast back on.
    + then you have to burn runes and mana replacing it every time I put it back on if you dont fail and get it first cast .. and I got lots of mana and runes are easy to grow or ask for. Plus my kingom will not be just sitting around while you take time, mana, runes, to keep it down.

    We can tit for tat ways to deal with any strategy, but dismissing anything with.. "It can be dealt with this way by any decent KD" its silly.. everything can be dealt with by any decent KD.. but doing it in tandem on time every time is the rub and that is why we play this game.
    You talk like i need to MV cs off of 5 attackers and keep it off perminately because the kd is tickly nsing 5 differnt people, and its going to cost SOO much mana. No, the kd will either
    1.mass NS 1 person post NM wave where your eating 100 ops in 1-2 min as soon as the MV is cast, and you simply trying to hit F5 over and over to see if u got MV may at best catch 1/3 of those ns ops ooh no you cost me 30*.25=7-8 failed NS's....sooo broken
    2. Nsing/proping offline targets. If your good enough to be awake nearly 24/7 recasting CS the second it gets Mv'ed congrats you win at the game, actualy kd strategies shouldnt try to plan against that level of activity, no kd currently is that active.


    Quote Originally Posted by MeIkor View Post
    Age 72 and before you got an attack times reduction of 20%. So after some hours in war you had 12*0.8=9.6h attack time. If you sync yourself with your kingdommates in a 12h attack rhythm, you can choose +2h for 5-8% gains (I think) and yout troops are back right after an tick, if you attack at x:30 hours. This means that you can raze your stables and rather easily calculate and manage your attack times in a way that keeps your horses out in the field from one tick to the next.
    Acres and BE fluctuations makes it really hard sometimes to do something similar with barracks.
    +-hours have higher base losses. If you are always using +2 hours on every hit you are destroying your offense, its a BAD way to function as a kd level strategy.
    Last edited by Persain; 15-08-2017 at 16:28.

  5. #35
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    "As for no theives lost on INTEL or CS, you saying putting a spell on that requires 2-3 casts to MV or loosing a few theives to intell is on par with say -35% total military losses? 50% more converts on undead, dragon immunity, +1 general if warrior had that again? if you really think that and you have a say on your kds setup, then your kd is much weaker than it could be if it had different leadership."

    Please quote where I claimed CS or no thieves lost on intel are on par with the bonusses above. I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that. I do think they are nice bonusses on top of the attack speed though and I brought them up because you disregarded them completely.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    +-hours have higher base losses. If you are always using +2 hours on every hit you are destroying your offense, its a BAD way to function as a kd level strategy.
    I thought we were talking about undead tactician. I definately hat no problem keeping my offense with +2h attack times, but I dropped about 14% stables and turned it into TGs and Hospitals. Hospitals rather to make a chain against me a very little bit harder than to keep more offense.

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    Undead tact strength is being able to hurt enemy tms without having to worry about losing too many at once. Last time I ran a kingdom wide setup we focused on chaining and massacring tms. We focused our tms on gutting attackers. My opinion is all tact or no tacts because you have to line military up to chain efficiently. Let's face it having kingdom wide cs is extremely nice. Plus it's noob proof, give a noob undead mystic and I bet you would see 10 wpa with 4 tpa and no offense or defense. Shoot I ran human heretics last age and put out strict limits on tpa and wpa. Went into AVarice war with humans having like 6 tpa 1 wpa and no magic or thief science. Point is noobs will mess up something like undead mystic but can't mess up undead tact. We beat avarice with undead tacts but lost with human heretics. ;)
    Last edited by Coldhearted; 15-08-2017 at 20:05.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uhm hoi View Post
    Please quote where I claimed CS or no thieves lost on intel are on par with the bonusses above. I'm pretty sure I never said anything like that. I do think they are nice bonusses on top of the attack speed though and I brought them up because you disregarded them completely.
    im saying attacking faster isn't innatly a bonus. In fact it actually hurts you more than helps you after you've been chained because you dont have enough offense to help out on the hybrid+t/m battle post chain AND every hit you make your kiling your own offense. The only way extra speed would help is if its enough speed that u can get your attacker core to chain the other attacker core fast enough that you still have enough big offense left to bring down t/m's. But given kd sizes and it being a 15-20% bonus and not a 50% bonus the extra speed simply isnt a bonus. So when you compare the bonus's of the personalities what your comparing is CS+intell V the bonus's of the other races.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeIkor View Post
    I thought we were talking about undead tactician. I definately hat no problem keeping my offense with +2h attack times, but I dropped about 14% stables and turned it into TGs and Hospitals. Hospitals rather to make a chain against me a very little bit harder than to keep more offense.
    Losses add up over a 6-7-8 day battle (either by attacking more or using +hours). A "good" example of that would b when my kd wared the kd taged "detroit." They were insanely hard to beat, really good, and used undead tacts. After 7-8 days of war, 1 succesfull chain via conquests and a another attempt to conquest wave they simply didnt have any offense left. Our chained dwarfs actually had MORE offense because of conquests and litterally outhitting our core by something like 22-12....losses add up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearted View Post
    Undead tact strength is being able to hurt enemy tms without having to worry about losing too many at once. Last time I ran a kingdom wide setup we focused on chaining and massacring tms. We focused our tms on gutting attackers. My opinion is all tact or no tacts because you have to line military up to chain efficiently. Let's face it having kingdom wide cs is extremely nice. Plus it's noob proof, give a noob undead mystic and I bet you would see 10 wpa with 4 tpa and no offense or defense. Shoot I ran human heretics last age and put out strict limits on tpa and wpa. Went into AVarice war with humans having like 6 tpa 1 wpa and no magic or thief science. Point is noobs will mess up something like undead mystic but can't mess up undead tact. We beat avarice with undead tacts but lost with human heretics. ;)
    Coldhearted i dont remember the last time we wared you but the issue is you cant deal with enemy t/m's early simply by having tacts. I may have used an average of 2 attackers per wave as an example, but if your single taping t/m's down your going to instantly lose because you'll get down ONE t/m per wave while nming an attacker can drop 4-5 per wave. Even if u do 1+spare thats 1 t/m+1 attacker...u'll get at most 2 t/m's and 2 attackers that way before i chain 4.5+3.5 of your attackers in my opening waves. The differnce between 8 chained attackers and 2 at the 24 hour mark is significantly differnt than if both sides just went attackers and it was like 15 v 13 at the 48-50 hour mark.
    Last edited by Persain; 15-08-2017 at 21:55.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    im saying attacking faster isn't innatly a bonus. In fact it actually hurts you more than helps you after you've been chained because you dont have enough offense to help out on the hybrid+t/m battle post chain AND every hit you make your kiling your own offense. The only way extra speed would help is if its enough speed that u can get your attacker core to chain the other attacker core fast enough that you still have enough big offense left to bring down t/m's. But given kd sizes and it being a 15-20% bonus and not a 50% bonus the extra speed simply isnt a bonus. So when you compare the bonus's of the personalities what your comparing is CS+intell V the bonus's of the other races.
    I gave 2 examples in which the speed bonus of the tactician is very strong. I have not disregarded the speedbonus to compare CS+Intel to the -35% losses of the cleric, to entire personalities or races. (I'm hoping you meant to say personalities there.) You claim I have and I should therefor not lead anymore. I'd like to challenge you again to find the post of me saying only CS+intel without the speed bonus is on par with -35% unit losses. Show me where I said this and I will do as you suggest and never lead again.
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  10. #40
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    ...edit.....and addon
    For what its worth, i really didn't mean "you suck, quit as a leader". if it was read that way it wasnt my intent, and Im sorry. Obviously if someone is willing to lead and try its a good thing, the only issue with leading is if someone is doing things like claiming 80% homes all war is a "Good" build and enforcing it on a kd they are making the kd much weaker than it should b.
    ....end edit..

    Quote Originally Posted by Uhm hoi View Post
    I gave 2 examples in which the speed bonus of the tactician is very strong. I have not disregarded the speedbonus to compare CS+Intel to the -35% losses of the cleric, to entire personalities or races. (I'm hoping you meant to say personalities there.) You claim I have and I should therefor not lead anymore. I'd like to challenge you again to find the post of me saying only CS+intel without the speed bonus is on par with -35% unit losses. Show me where I said this and I will do as you suggest and never lead again.
    sory yea i did mean personalities. and i was trying to speak in an over the top manor...i guess it all got a bit muddled. My point is the example you give where speed is strong aren't good. And they are so not good, that the only claim u should/could be making is that CS+intell are the only real "bonus" that Tact is getting. IF you were "bad" enough to claim cs+intell was on par with the other personality bonus's you'd have to be a bad player...and thus a bad leader. Again the point was to talk in an over the top way to be dismissive of the speed bonus in a way that'd would sound absurd enough to get the point across. i.e.the take away shoulda read something like

    "As the speed bonus of tact isnt good you saying tact is good is as absurd as comparing cs+intell to say the personality bonus of a cleric and obviously doing that would only be done by bad players/leaders"


    For what its worth you made 2 cases
    1.The initial early wave--
    can done cleric v cleric because war bonus instantly gives a speed bonus. Tact doesnt magically give you 2 waves before the enemy does in war if planing out a good engagement. Even IF it is the case that both kds would use for example auto declare the tact kd geting 2 waves in before the second wave of a non tact kd waves can easily be a good thing for the non tact kd the leadership understands its comming and planns for it. i.e. you are placing more of their attackers as finishers so they deep chain you harder andbetter than you can deep chain them in the first 24 hours and THEY actually have an advantage over you.

    2. the ability to lap a kd and get a full extra wave in at min time
    again isnt a bonus because your not actually chaining enough more people at min time or even in total as a tact to start working on the enemy t/m's before you lose offense to overpopulation. And since this is the case the extra speed just means you have more offensive losses as you deal with the enemies attackers over time. For what its worth my experience with tact is that even with an extra wave tacts chain the exact same number of attackers at min time as a non tact setup becuse of NM waving. A tact kd is attacking every 10 hours, where a non tact kd is hitting every 12. 2 hours with 8 casters is typically about 24 casts of NM. 24 casts of nm is about how many it takes to lower 1 extra hitter into multitaps. So if both kds are nm waveing tacts do 4.5, 2.5, 3, 2, 2= 14 chains... Whereas non tacts can pull off 4.5 3.5 3 3=14 chains. AT min time. Since 14 is is just starting to hit how many attackers 2 kds run, and 48 hours in is enough to start building unbreakables but not early enough that all the "threats" are down theres never quite a time that a tact kd can leverage the speed advantage into a long term military advantage.
    Last edited by Persain; 16-08-2017 at 05:39.

  11. #41
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    For 1, considering offered war, you get your second wave before the opposing kd. This allows you to use your highest offense attackers for an extra wave, which translates to an extra chained tm who wouldn't gotten chained that easily without the speed bonus. This is how we won vs avarice last age, we only had 2 attackers able to open the last elf mystic on the second wave and if those would've gone down (or those that needed to follow up those hits) before hitting that, we probably would've lost that war.

    For 2, I didnt talk about an extra wave before mintime. I gave an example of hitting in between your opponent's waves. If your attack time is 10.2 hours and your opponent's is 12 hours, if one would use tact on a race that has a higher defense elite, one could hit after the opposing wave and have your armies home before their next wave. You'd be quadtapping their lowered defense vs them being forced to double tap in return. Obviously this cant be applied in every situation or vs any kd, but when it's applicable it does hurt the opposing kd a lot.
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  12. #42
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    Considering we did pretty decent last age with a full human tactician attacking core I'm pretty sure Persain is trolling when he says Tactician is garbage.

    The fact that you can plan all your attacks to return before/after enemy waves is insanely powerful. It is a lot of micro management, but our war against Ruthless we were going down hard... until we got a "free" wave with 5 attackers hitting after their wave, and would return before their armies came home. Giving us 5 masses on a previously un-targetable Halfling Rogue.

    The flexibility of a tactician is awesome, the added perks of being able to NS 2-3 days into war due to no thief losses and/or the added CS just to force enemy mages to keep MV-ing you (this goes for all personalities now with Paladin around) is awesome. -20% attack times gave it a lot of flexiblity (dont like the -15%).

    That said, I guess we all have our preferences, but to say tactician is garbage is simply not true.
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    again i'd go back to its not like im saying your running 25 feary warriors, obviously you can be successful with tact. But i call it garbage because again any situation where your saying "oh look at how strong it is" i can show you that slightly tweaking your setup away from tact and thus the kd level strategy to go along w/out using tact would be beneficial.

    @Uhm hoi, your example #2 i didnt address sry, and its a bit early for my posts to go into a war long explanation of how that doesn't work out long term, but the simple explanation is you cant wait out every wave on all your provs, some have to open up and will drop. That "Strategy" would highlight the importance of MS if your talking about sitting army in for 2 hours every 12 (or 1/6 of your time is eating ms leets in) or at LEAST be easily countered by having 1/3 of my wave +2 hours their hits in 1 wave. boom my attackers are now in 2 pockets of hitting (that can be re-adusted using -2hours later) such that you cant sneak in hits anymore.

    @NighT....you got lucky they were waving in such a tight wave, and it seems VERY unlikely to me that you had 5 attackers who simply couldnt have massacred using -hours to do the same thing running non tact. If your 5 guys had to have tact AND -hours to get those massacres in congrats, u found a use. However, planing a kd level strategy requiring the enemy to have synced armies and needing to use tact and -hours massacres isn't going to be very successful long term against multiple opponents, and i'd argue that is a bad way to design a kd.

    Also u wanna see how a human tact setup works compared to a setup designed elsewhere look at our war v warseekers last age. They were/are by no means "bad" they beat CR for example(who had a similar setup to us but went dwarf tact instead of heretic), but a setup designed to not run tact V their human tacts allowed us to build 17 unbreakable by ~ min time and take a HUGE chunck of their land in what turned out to be a pretty one sided fight.
    Last edited by Persain; 16-08-2017 at 12:51.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    again i'd go back to its not like im saying your running 25 feary warriors, obviously you can be successful with tact. But i call it garbage because again any situation where your saying "oh look at how strong it is" i can show you that slightly tweaking your setup away from tact and thus the kd level strategy to go along w/out using tact would be beneficial.

    @Uhm hoi, your example #2 i didnt address sry, and its a bit early for my posts to go into a war long explanation of how that doesn't work out long term, but the simple explanation is you cant wait out every wave on all your provs, some have to open up and will drop. That "Strategy" would highlight the importance of MS if your talking about sitting army in for 2 hours every 12 (or 1/6 of your time is eating ms leets in) or at LEAST be easily countered by having 1/3 of my wave +2 hours their hits in 1 wave. boom my attackers are now in 2 pockets of hitting (that can be re-adusted using -2hours later) such that you cant sneak in hits anymore.

    @NighT....you got lucky they were waving in such a tight wave, and it seems VERY unlikely to me that you had 5 attackers who simply couldnt have massacred using -hours to do the same thing running non tact. If your 5 guys had to have tact AND -hours to get those massacres in congrats, u found a use. However, planing a kd level strategy requiring the enemy to have synced armies and needing to use tact and -hours massacres isn't going to be very successful long term against multiple opponents, and i'd argue that is a bad way to design a kd.

    Also u wanna see how a human tact setup works compared to a setup designed elsewhere look at our war v warseekers last age. They were/are by no means "bad" they beat CR for example(who had a similar setup to us but went dwarf tact instead of heretic), but a setup designed to not run tact V their human tacts allowed us to build 17 unbreakable by ~ min time and take a HUGE chunck of their land in what turned out to be a pretty one sided fight.
    What got me going was you seem to say Undead Mystic is good while Undead Tact is garbage. Perhaps you did not mean "Garbage"?????
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  15. #45
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    Problem is if you get chained before you release Wiz you are just stuck with them eating up pop space while trying to send army out again. At least as Rogue, with thief's, you can release and remove them at will. UD rogue is a solid combo imo but mystic looks fun just for YOLO type stuff.

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