UD/mystic build

[Suur]

This is skill. You need to understand the difference.. A good player can make any combo useful but it doesnt mean its even near to optimal. One guy can play better attacker as Faery than other guy as Undead.
Utopia is all about optimization.
You play different combo each age, alrighty then. It doesnt´t mean I suggest same KD setup every age. But you wont get very far with Undead Mystics in this age setings. Etc an Undead Rogue can single handedly destroy you while you are waiting until your mates supply you with runes. Ask some guys who have warred against NS-ing Undead Rogues this age. NS damage is massive this age. You can destroy undead offense without making a single attack on him. Rogues can be countered true and so can be countered Mystics. This is where 3rd attribute comes in play - you are already in disadvantage with unrealiable rune supply, not being able to steal.

[bdbcoyote]

The issue with rogue is overpop, since most attackers get chained down anyways. They wont be able to use their abilities if chained down and requiring release. I see your point though, but why you use your runes first on ET on their rogues. Why one runs low on runes and have runes for lower cast spells just not for LL and high rune spells. Rogues cannot do anything without stealth, so your first wave is always ET. Plus if the kingdom is full of Dark Elf/Faery Mystics and you are using Undead Rogue to target the 1 or 2 support Undead Mystics, you are missing your mark. Also, massacre kills more thieves than wizards. Undead don't have the best of defense and like undead rogue you play as an attacker first and personality as a support not a corner stone. An Undead Rogue also requires more forces to be moved to TPA than an Undead Mystic requires in WPA or elsewhere outside of actual armies. Most Undead mystics run around 3-4 WPA and 1-2 TPA. Assuming most decent rogues run around 5 TPA and maybe 1-2 WPA, so an undead rogue in theory would have even less military or defense. Rogues need to add in a fair amount of Thieves Den as well making their build a little less aggressive for attacking. Just my point of view, and as stated before War Hero is the best choice for undead. The hybrids are just there to capitalize on certain advantages or disadvantage of a race.

[Suur]

There are so many weird stuff in your post that I dont even know where to start.
You are retarded if you run 5 raw tpa as UD/rogue to NS opponent attackers. You have science bonus from Rogue + TD. You go with 3raw through almost everything except opponent rogues.
You get chained? OMG. Who ***ing cares. You had 3 tpa. You still function as a very good attacker. And you dont necessarily need to release all thieves in most cases. Your chain argument actually works for Mystics too. They cant release their wizz unless when done in the start of chain. They actually keep lees troops. With LL you may be able to level the troops with UD/Rogue assuming you keep your wizzes.. And again relaying on others in your KD if you get those runes or not.
About ET I already said. You must have forgot about sabotage wizzes. It´s about who is OP-ing first but Mystic is definitely in disadvantage. Its explained above. Also I have never seen a perfect ET rotation throughout a war. But tapping for runes after every 2-3 ticks is very common.
in general no matter if ET or sabotage wiz. The potential damage that a Ud rogue core can do with NS is huge. You need to constantly keep them in check. This will take so much effort that you cannot fulfill the other important tasks. And they are all just attackers and same time so much trouble.

[MeIkor]

You are missing the point, its not a mage. Undead Mystic is an attacker. You play it as an attacker, you just have a bit better wpa than most but far less than a mage. You are more or less chain bait so you become more powerful with instant spells damage. Undead in general cannot steal, which is a major down fall with the inability to build elites.

Let me repeat, Undead Mystic isn't meant to be played as a pure mage. Yes there are plenty of other combos out there, I play a different combo each age. Why limit yourself to just some possibilities? Good players can take any combo and make it work, there is always something better usually. Sorry you are weak minded to see the point and think that your decent war kingdom will simply win because one person in the kingdom is undead mystic. How naive are you?

If you want to play pure Attacker you should not chose Mystic,
if you want to play pure Mage you should not choose Undead.

A kingdom might for example decide if it want to use
4 pure mages and 15 pure attackers or
3 pure mages, 2 U/M, and 14 pure attackers.

An U/M with channeling and production investments can run 10 mod wpa, have enough runes to support the mana bonus and loses about 30-40% mod opa against an Undead Warrior.
But then 2 U/M have more offense than 1 pure mage and an Undead Warrior. And 2 U/M + 3 pure mages have magic more firepower than 4 pure mages, if they chose targets efficiently.

[Swagger]

We warred a kd with a undead mage. We let them get fat, massacred them a couple times and they were useless

[bdbcoyote]

The Chain argument is about the ability to function. If you are over populated you cannot attack or do thief ops. Mystics can still cast spells while over populated, why feeding runes to an Undead Mystic at the bottom to LL your top size players works to this advantage. Like most top kingdom play, chained attackers become mages and are fed runes because the cost of their spells are greatly cheaper and its based upon WPA and not guilds.

If you are using your rogues to target my Undead Mystic instead of hitting the attackers in my kingdom or my pure mages, then I have done my job. It is a support role, its clear you have no idea how synergism works in a kingdom. 3rtpa seems a bit low even for a hybrid and most provinces still run WTs to reduce the damage of the ops.

Most good kingdoms target bocans or rogues in general during the hostile wave, reduce their defense. Hybrid undead either mystic or rogue are accessible to easy hits and if they became a problem could easily be massacred or just chained down to ineffectiveness.

As for science advantage, not sure if you have this problem or not. But I know being Undead with access to revelation has made me an unwanted target for abducts. Orc Clerics are ruling the age with over 80 nerds because they can get good gains and undead with poor science even more at a disadvantage losing all their science to easy hits and inability to create elites unless traditional marching.

Also, you stated an undead core. I am merely talking about 1-2 support roles not a whole kingdom. Most people would avoid a whole kingdom of undead and only a kingdom with high orc or avian might attempt such a task and just try to out gain you or out hit you. Once again, if you are over populated you cannot attack or do ops, so just normal chains til you are down and out like you would any other attacker.

Cannot imagine an undead core lasting very long in a long war due to attrition. In war build you don't make much money and a few bocan and a handful of decent WPA can greed and riot the whole kingdom. Plus add in sapphire dragons and rituals and you can negate your knack. Just my thoughts. Good luck in your age and the point of this thread was to help someone with their Undead Mystic not talk about Undead Rogues and NSing and unusual Undead Rogue Cores.

[Suur]

By UD Rogue core i dont mean all attackers are UD Rogues but enough to make them difficult to monitor. You are right about that you might want some addidional Avians and Orcs. The thing that you fail to understand is that UD Rogue is a strong attacker. You dont need high tpa to ns with that combo. Bringing out being chained is irrelevant. Every atacker can get chained. UD rogue can function like any other atacker after chain.

[Swagger]

I'm playing undead rogue and can function just fine after being chained. Sure some leaves to overpop, but if you're smart and keep a healthy amount of acres incoming you can salvage plenty enough to continue AWing or NSing as needed.

[Suur]

I saw an 1500 nwpa chain on UD rogue yesterday. When his troops arrived home he was 20 tpa raw. He released to 5tpa raw and was able to attack. And yes you want incoming acres. Like any other attacker.
But my point was that even if you lose all thives or release them to keep troops - you continue as a strong lower tier attacker with not much difference compared to Undaed War hero that was chained etc.

[Zombies are people too]

If we are talking optimum, then we are talking Undead Tact, even over war hero.

on topic, both have their niche plays. Again, you can't really say one is better than the other, as there are a lot of variables when it comes to both combos.

With your undead mystic, 75% to channeling, 20% to spell damage, +1 mana per tick, with 4 or 5 of them as your mid tier chain gang(like 100 opa and 70rdpa) you cover both NM/FB wave potential and MS against pure attackers. You just freed up a lot of mana for your tms. Downside is needing rune support at least until day 3, day 2 if youre lucky. high towers on day 1 takes away from your war build, and youre weak to LS from a pure mage.

Undead rogues rely on the KD as much as mystics. Yes, with 4-5 of them in your mid chain gang, you have great NS, prop, or AW potential. Stealing horses, kidnaps, and GA are all great assets to have in specific plays. Downside? All attackers are running wts, a quick CS cast as a tact or from a friendly paladin and youre fighting uphill against basic rtpa, 45% catchrate and -30% gains per op. thieves are 500gc, not 250 and you have to train from your soldier pool, so choosing between ospecs and thieves stinks, your sci boost is only 50%, and having to run at least 10% TDs cuts into your TGs, GS, Rax etc, where mystic doesnt need to allot acres to their potential. Overpop disallows you use of stealth, and actual tm rogues will use you as prop bait to refill their thieves and eat your elites if you get landlocked.

Despite all that, it really comes down to the player, and the kd; both have ridiculous potential in certain plays, with one being more in line with the racial and the other being a sleeper. a good player can pull off both surrounded by a few other good players doing the same strat. Cannot really argue one is better than the other, it's situational.

-DM <3

[Suur]

Some good points indeed. But good old " it really comes down to the player" is not something you should use when comparing race and personality combos.
I´m not really sure you are aware what NS can do this age. Or you would not make it look comparable with a "sleeper" and FB guy.

[Zombies are people too]

if anything, the biggest variable is the player, no matter the race/persona comparison rofl. Waste of my time arguing that point though, an inexperienced player is going to fail in either role, an experienced player could excel in either. you cant rebut that lol

I read the changes and fought war this age, I know how powerful NS is, problem is there are hard counters to stealth ops(especially low rtpa undead rogues), more so than spell ops, an effing building type is enough evidence to that fact.

When his troops arrived home he was 20 tpa raw. He released to 5tpa raw and was able to attack. And yes you want incoming acres. Like any other attacker.

That right there points in the direction of mystic imo. 15rtpa loss at 500gc a pop without even getting to use the stealth makes me cry. a mystic in the same boat (20rwpa) would get to blow his mana at that modifier before having to release to 5rwpa to attack; LL alone might save a few rWPA even . Again the counter argument would be "wizzies are harder to replace thieves" but im just using your numbers as an example. Id cry losing that many wizzies too lol.

My point was you could all day back n forth pointing out strengths and weaknesses to both combos, end of the day its irrelevant. This thread is about making an undead mystic build that works iirc.

-DM <3

[Suur]

Your success rate with NS on attackers is similar are you 5tpa or 20tpa. You can go all out AW while being chained if you have stealth at that moment of course. Very effective. You are way too emotional player then. Undead is easy to pump. This 500gc thieves to get 3-4 tpa is nothing. Considering you can steal. Its one of the easiest combos to pump after pure attacker UD possibly.

[Zombies are people too]

Emotional player? It's a joke lol Im done.

Just for fun though, 1k acres with 5rtpa 5k thieves, chained down to 250 acres; dropping down to 5rtpa @250 is 1250 thieves. 1250 thieves doing NS is a drastic drop from a rogue with 5k thieves even before we throw Wts, IS, and Barrier into that mix. The similar scenario on an Undead Mystic with wizzies and a fb is still an fb, nm is still an nm, ms, chastity, LL, so forth at a lower rune cost if you will ;D

-DM <3

[Suur]

I´m not sure we are at the same level of game knowledge. Your posts rise a lot of questions for sure. Lets improvise now a little: For NSing a target of your own size you need roughly 20-30% thieves for max gains depending on army size and army home or out but this is about average you need to send for max gains when you run 3-4 tpa. And you dont need to really max gain because sending 15% might give already pretty close to max gain. 20% of 5000 is 1K. You need to send about 1K thieves for max gain NS on guys at 1K acres. You need to time your incoming TD but its not like you care too much about the losses anymore at this point. I think you can NS just fine those 1K acre guys for a while at least. But you dont even need to do that because you can NS opponent chained provinces elites out and probably with much less thieves giving max gains. Doubt they have any WT left so should be very good success and decent gains too. You can destroy their offense.