Removing fort: The worst change even made in Utopia

[Palem]

I don't get it. UB TMs stopped being a thing before I stopped playing.

I'll be nicer than the "adapt or die" people. Please adapt people. If you're trying to do something and you continuously face setbacks, you need to change your strategy. It is never the games fault (short of legitimate bugs) that your strategy isn't working.

[Milkman]

Bottomfeeding is the way to go this age. The kd above me feed on me and i feed on whats below me. If your kingdom wants acres it is better to full wave a kingdom that is to weak to fight back then do randoms all over the place.

[Swagger]

Adapt or die is the reality though palem. If the rules of the game change and you don't change with them, you're going to be left behind. Brevity isn't rude!

[Yadda9To5]

"Adapt or die" is all good and well, except at some point players are going to prefer to die. Conceptually dealing with fake-fort is not really a problem. The problem is that many players aren't that much into the game, they like to war, build up in between war, and war again. Fake fort makes the build up phase take more effort and be much less pleasant, esp for those needing it most (there is no way an average deep chained attacker or gutted tm can get their prov in shape in eowcf only) which are turned into sitting ducks. And that's not even mentioning needed to recover from searching war / getting waved, good luck with that. Fake fort only enables a downwards spiral in province shape.

(yeah yeah, the good kds don't need to be super pumped, most kds aren't the good kds that will happily war in a crap shape)

[emerix]

"Adapt or die" is all good and well, except at some point players are going to prefer to die. Conceptually dealing with fake-fort is not really a problem. The problem is that many players aren't that much into the game, they like to war, build up in between war, and war again. Fake fort makes the build up phase take more effort and be much less pleasant, esp for those needing it most (there is no way an average deep chained attacker or gutted tm can get their prov in shape in eowcf only) which are turned into sitting ducks. And that's not even mentioning needed to recover from searching war / getting waved, good luck with that. Fake fort only enables a downwards spiral in province shape.

(yeah yeah, the good kds don't need to be super pumped, most kds aren't the good kds that will happily war in a crap shape)

I'll disagree with that. Manage your TB, manage your incoming aid. You get massive build/spec creds and some land even if you lost the war so I don't see how building back your prov to being the smallest in range is that big of a problem.

[CheckerBob]

I'm running a Mage in my kingdom this round. I got chained towards the end of our first war somewhat aggressively. Although it was a bit more of a challenge this round, I was able to more than double my land and get above average defense before exiting EOWCF. I'm currently sitting nice and comfortable in the meat of my kingdom and I haven't been hit once OOW. Make yourself an unappealing target and you'll rarely get hit OOW, and in war make the kingdom sacrifice a lot of time and effort if they do target you. OOW if i did get hit they'd either get next to no resources from a plunder, they'd be crossing their fingers to get even 1 scientist with an abduct, and if attacked for land...? well i could get that back easier than squeezing out a fart. Yes, had a few Massacres been thrown in before being pummeled for land things might have been a little more sticky but I would have worked on sciences less and getting back in shape for my kingdom more. the games become more exciting for us T/M's who can no longer hide behind UB defenses. I actually like signing on expecting an attack, rather than outraged the rare times it use to happen (I was honor addicted...it had become a sickness).

Yea ADAPT...everyones too quick to point out problems with change...i think i'd squeeze out more than a fart if i signed on to these forums one day and a thread was posted about all that is right with the changes that round.

[TommyB]

Please correct me if I am missing something, but in the fortified stance you could get waved right after entering for basically full gains and you could only retaliate for -50% gains. Now, if you get waved after entering prosperous stance, you can retaliate for -20% gains. Seems like an improvement?

Concerning UD wanting to pump elites, in the old stance they would get reduced gains and reduced conversions so the amount of elites gained per acre would be similar to hitting a kingdom out of fortified. In the new prosperous stance they would get full land and reduced conversions so that would just make them fatter than not hitting for conversions. So why would the new stance make the problem any worse for recovering kingdoms?

[Verminator]

The problem is that many players aren't that much into the game, they like to war, build up in between war, and war again.

Are they not that much into the game, or do they like to war/build up/war again, aka a big part of "the game" ? You seem to contradict yourself.

Fake fort makes the build up phase take more effort and be much less pleasant, esp for those needing it most (there is no way an average deep chained attacker or gutted tm can get their prov in shape in eowcf only) which are turned into sitting ducks.

Build up during Normal stance or, oh my gosh, Prosperous stance.

Lose land? Less build up time.

Lose scientists? You should've run Universities.

Lose other resources? You should've spent them better.

Chained as a T/M? Stop playing T/M and learn to play hybrid so you can take your land back in war. Your attacker friends are having a grand ole time doing it.

Gutted as a T/M? Stop playing T/M or adapt to not get gutted next time with more TPA/Watchtowers/Homes/Housing science/Thieves Dens/Crime science. Crikey! That's SIX ways to help fight being gutted! What the?!

And that's not even mentioning needed to recover from searching war / getting waved, good luck with that. Fake fort only enables a downwards spiral in province shape.

That is not a province issue, that is a kingdom issue. Look less vulnerable. Teach players better province management. Learn better diplomacy skills.

On the flipside, looking amazingly pumped and in ideal warring condition is what causes you to NOT get wars quickly enough in the first place, causing you to have to wave or eat waves and waste resources and waste time recovering.

That downward spiral is actually your own kingdom's doing. Surprise.

[Yadda9To5]

Saying players need to man up / be better is so missing the point :'( The game should provide an entertaining environment, making rebuild/recovery harder makes the environment more player hostile. It's nice the "pro" players know how to deal with it (i'd argue they aren't really that much better at dealing with new fake fort, they're just playing in an environment where they don't have to deal with it, in the lower tiers, the less organized kds, it's a whole lot more difficult (take for example the advice "retal on a tm" yeah, it' sane advice, except for those being the tm...), for them this change sucks.

[Korp]

Sounds like you just don't wanna make the effort to learn something new.

[dsqrd]

I'm more of a my-opponent-has-the-same-mechanics-as-me kinda player, so I don't usually care about the changes. That goes for this change too.

I love to war (when I'm not taking an off age like I am now) and I often stated to my mates that we only have to be pumped enough for the next war. That often means we aren't fully pumped. I've also seen that eowcf is usually enough to get mostly/totally pumped if done correctly.

I CAN see where yadda is coming from. I can see where the change makes it harder for many (the majority?) of provinces to bounce back and be ready for war. Perhaps the appropriate question would have been, "Did this change's level of difficulty outweigh the increase in enjoyment or interest factor?" A challenge is fun. Too challenging is tedious.

I think Cyberphobia's problem is that he overstated his frustration, so now he's getting more push-back.

[Verminator]

I CAN see where yadda is coming from. I can see where the change makes it harder for many (the majority?) of provinces to bounce back and be ready for war.

Nay. The change pushed kingdom cooperation and better teamwork. The goal is not to make things easier for the majority of the game; the goal is to make the majority of the game learn how to be more competitive.

[DonJuan]

If anyone hasnt already figured out the dilema (most monarchs already have) is that there is not enuff time to adequately pump.

I get the frustration with not doing what we been doing for years upon years...but like the 24hr OOP change we do need to adapt.

People were used to having 3 eowcf days + 2-3 fort days (5-6 pump days)...now we essentially get just half those days. If you gain tons of land in war...you wont be able to fully repopulate, fully draft, fully TRAIN and covert to a war build (even as an undead or avian).

People will just landdrop and abuse the charts and no incentive to grow into lands if going to be farmed oow. If you didn't go undead or avian then most likely your early game blows.

I fully expect the Devs to increase EoWCF to 96hrs to alleviate this next age...it's only way to fix without going back on changes.

4 days of EoWCF would be enuff for everyone to draft and train without relying on Prosperous bailout.

[Milkman]

If anyone hasnt already figured out the dilema (most monarchs already have) is that there is not enuff time to adequately pump.

I get the frustration with not doing what we been doing for years upon years...but like the 24hr OOP change we do need to adapt.

People were used to having 3 eowcf days + 2-3 fort days (5-6 pump days)...now we essentially get just half those days. If you gain tons of land in war...you wont be able to fully repopulate, fully draft, fully TRAIN and covert to a war build (even as an undead or avian).

People will just landdrop and abuse the charts and no incentive to grow into lands if going to be farmed oow. If you didn't go undead or avian then most likely your early game blows.

I fully expect the Devs to increase EoWCF to 96hrs to alleviate this next age...it's only way to fix without going back on changes.

4 days of EoWCF would be enuff for everyone to draft and train without relying on Prosperous bailout.

Why landdrop if you can also war on less pump? It is not like you're the only landfat kingdom on the server ;)

[lycanflow]

In the mean time all the Undeads are hitting for acres trying to convert elites, and i double tap them for scientists. Winning. You could Triple, but giving away unfriendly all over the place wouldn't be advisable.

Adapt. I like it, removes a lot of stagnation out of the game. All those UB TM's hitting Prince etc last age was a bit of a bore.