Ok, so this seems to have gotten a bit out of hand. Going to make a few points in here and leave it at that (note: I just skimmed this so if I missed something something said, forgive me...)

First of all, I represent the U, which includes Meep / CP / ext. They've both posted in this thread and for the most part we are all on the same page but I think some stuff has gotten a bit twisted. Going to make one attempt to set things straight by laying out a few points.

- The early age stuff with TBB has absolutely NO bearing on this conflict, not even sure why people on our side brought it out. To be clear, TBB asked us PRE AGE if we wanted a war and we declined more than once. They waved us OOP anyway (their right, no issue with that) and we ignored them hoping they would go away / make a mistake and let us war them from a stronger position. They played it correctly though and I have NO issue with how that went down. One SMALL point is at some point we apparently tagged "no hostile" or something. I don't really remember but we were NOT opping them AT ALL. Trying to compare that early age situation and anything later is pointless.

- Our war with Sparta -- They beat us, we made mistakes and they played great. Nothing but respect their. We tried to B2B them and failed. PART of that failure was because TBB waved us mid hostile. This is the crux of our beef with TBB. It was blatant, there was NO excuse for it. Just because Sparta wasn't hitting us back didn't make it any less "hostile" and EVERYONE knew that we were in a very serious fight. It blows my mind that this even needs explaining but I'll try anyway. With the mechanics this age (specifically meter throttling and the power of ops) it is a VERY smart strategy to let someone else initiate and then OP them while you wait for the meter to throttle. Sparta did this brilliantly (well played guys) and TBB piled on right in the middle. We also saw it coming and tried to diplo with them HOURS before. I have NO idea why they did it (and I'm NOT going to accuse Sparta of anything -- to be honest it helped them but I don't think they NEEDED TBB to wave us to secure a win). THIS is the thing that really pissed us off and is really the only point here that matters. They 2v1ed us.

- In spite of the fact that we would have VERY valid justification for 2v1ing TBB we did NOT do that. It is VERY clear that they had something agreed with ronin, they did manage to hit them before we could (if you take a SN you can see we broke CF before any hits but due to the CF lag bug we couldn't hit until they already had some armies out). Their hits on ronin made NO sense and they didn't give a button. There is absolutely 0 doubt they had something arranged to try to dodge us. EVEN if you believe they did NOT have anything arranged and that was a real attempt to initiate with ronin they did NOT go to hostile. We hit in the middle of it and took them to hostile right away.

- We did this to make a point -- you don't double us with no consequences. I consider that point to be made at this time and in fact we have been open to a CF after the INITIAL wave. However TBB tried to do what Sparta did to us and bring us down with ops while relying on meter throttle to minimize our gains. Unfortunately for them we managed to learn a thing or 2 from the Sparta hostile and it isn't working out so well for TBB.

- In ADDITION to all of this TBB offered us a clear FW during our diplo this age. I'm not accusing them and Ronin of having a FW, that's truly impossible to know. The important thing here is it goes to show you that TBB is NOT a kingdom to be trusted and is another reason for us to wave them when we had our opening.

Apparently there is some ridiculous discussion about if this is a hostile or not. TBB is finally hitting back so that should be 100% clear now. Even if they didn't make a single hit it was still obviously a hostile.... Anyway, stay tuned, and Ronin please WD your notice at least for now.