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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    The war wasn't cut off because they complained to support that they didn't want to be in that war. The war was cut off because their monarch was a multi that set up fake wars previously and even attempted to make their current war into a fake one. It's safe to assume that in the future, if your monarch is a multi and/or sets up fake wars that your war may come to a sudden halt. Anything beyond that is just you trying to pitch a fit because the admins actually bothered to action your cheating friends for cheating.
    Ummm, their monarch was a multi that set up fake wars previously, yes.

    Their monarch defected and got the stew to propose war to us. We accepted and refused to agree to anything thereafter. If you're saying that everyone from 1:9 who messaged us, whether in-game mail or in war forums, asking for selective hits or for hits to stop in return for a guaranteed war win is guilty of trying to turn the war into a fake war, why wasn't half of 1:9 deleted then?

    Not saying they should be deleted, just trying to see where the consistency is in all of this.

  2. #92
    Postaholic Ovenmitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekdrop View Post
    Why was Ronin's war vs. The U not immediately stopped after it was clear The U was intentionally farming out to screw the competition?
    Why was Ronin's war vs. Sleepy not immediately stopped after coss rage quit, which set the precedence for another farm?
    Farming out is legal. It doesn't make a war fake. The problem is that wars award free stuff. Never in the history of utopia have wars been so contentious, with nonstop whining on the forums. Why is that? It's because the admins added in a terrible war bonus system and basically forced kingdoms into needing them and their bonuses to compete. This, coupled with individual acre pools, limit the ability of superior kingdoms to squash mediocre and bad kingdoms, and breeds resentment when one squashes the other - when the reality of it is if there were no bonuses or individual pools, it wouldnt be necessary for them to compete at all in a war, there would be zero incentive to farm another kingdom out in this manner, and there would be no incentive to fake war.

    The problem is the system, the admins, and their nonexistent sense of fairplay and/or morality vs the reality of the game they have created/chicken ****ed into what it is currently.
    Last edited by Ovenmitt; 22-11-2017 at 03:37.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekdrop View Post
    What I wonder is why two KD's that are not competing for the crown get sanctioned within 24 hrs, while Ronin was able to ride two farm wars to a crown?

    Why was Ronin's war vs. The U not immediately stopped after it was clear The U was intentionally farming out to screw the competition?
    Why was Ronin's war vs. Sleepy not immediately stopped after coss rage quit, which set the precedence for another farm?

    Personally, it is what it is and according to the rules, Ronin's crown was legit.
    However, the number of acres being farmed in these two wars were much higher, and had a huge impact on the chart.

    It was also not the first instance of a huge farmout, with Sleepy gaining a huge lead after a farm war from a Bart shell.
    Sleepy has been reasonable not to overly push the huge advantage they have gotten.

    Bottom line: If last age charts have been shaped by multiple plays that are worse, why are the admins sanctioning 6:4?
    Why is the majority of the board stating that you should not press buttons if the other KD does not know how to play?

    Let's not turn this game into a hand holding contest. The real world is already ruined with the rainbow, glitter, unicorns SJW nonsense.

    If you were all really worried about unfair advantages, actions would've been taken after last age.

    A possibility is to auto-win a war before min time has passed if a certain % has been passed or when there is a huge disparity in number of uniques.
    If you farm like 20% of the kingdom's acres before min-time, you get pulled out of war, you gain no war win, no credits but 4 days EOW CF.

    By announcing it upfront and embedding in the rules, then it is a calculated risk: if you farm out the other KD too bad, you get the acres, but not the win.

    I am confident everyone agrees with me, as we all want the best for the game, and one cannot argue with logic.
    Thank you trekdrop. This is why so many people in my kd are expressing a desire to quit once this age ends. The perception is, rightly or wrongly, that if you belong to the good old boys club, leniency in enforcement will be shown while if you're not as connected, to hell with the amount of time and money you may have put into the game.

    While David has gone a long way to managing those perceptions in this case with his lengthy clarification (and which is appreciated), the fact remains that people are still fearful and uncertain on how to proceed. When is accepting a war proposal acceptable and when is it not? If a kingdom 85% of our nw gives us the button, do we press it? Looks like an easy win but will this current scenario repeat itself?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovenmitt View Post
    It's because the admins added in a terrible war bonus system and basically forced kingdoms into needing them and their bonuses to compete. This, coupled with individual acre pools, limit the ability of superior kingdoms to squash mediocre and bad kingdoms, and breeds resentment when one squashes the other -
    Just curious to the above, do you mean you prefer a system where casual or newer KDs can't compete against established KDs or the war bonus system allows all KDs to have a chance at competing and the established KDs resent them for it? Or established KD on KD conflict breeds resentment? Maybe it's the wording I'm having trouble with.

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  5. #95
    Postaholic Ovenmitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    Just curious to the above, do you mean you prefer a system where casual or newer KDs can't compete against established KDs or the war bonus system allows all KDs to have a chance at competing and the established KDs resent them for it? Or established KD on KD conflict breeds resentment? Maybe it's the wording I'm having trouble with.

    -DM <3
    "Compete" is relative. If by compete you mean "within nw range to potentially get in conflict with a top tier kd from yr0-yr3" then I'll buy that. All "compete" means in that sense is they can get stomped in war 1 and be out of it the rest of the age regardless. By not allowing KDs with superior strategy, time, networking, to grow a single province with a kingdom pool, it simply creates more need for them to beat on tier 2 and 3 kingdoms, since now they literally have to beat down these bad kingdoms to ensure their place on the leaderboard. This directly shifts conflict to kingdoms that can't handle it, and they spend the whole age getting farmed/random by top kds as a result, to what is known as the "whore cap" - or, as high as you can grow making random attacks into bad or tier 2 kingdoms, which is ~125-135% the networth/land of the biggest provinces in these bad kingdoms (by bad, we mean 95% of the server).

    Where you are misguided is that you think these kingdoms can compete, regardless.

    They can't.

    Now they're just forced to go into the ring and get beat up instead of staying small and irrelevant in their own utopia bubble with the rest of the bad kingdoms. There's a reason the #1 strategy for all top tier kingdoms is "look weak and find a war vs a **** kingdom to start the age off", because the war win bonuses are stupid. You literally can't compete at the top without them, because of how individual pools are skewed and setup necessitating war wins. It's. a. fundamentally. flawed. system. and it's the mid tier and ghetto kingdoms that pay the price.

    TL:DR remove the war bonuses, there is no incentive to farm these bad kingdoms or "fake war," because it hampers potential growth.
    Last edited by Ovenmitt; 22-11-2017 at 03:58.
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  6. #96
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    So if i am understanding you correctly, the gate to get into the top is to have the coordination to set up a cow, and with the current meta making that hard, KDs are forced to war. Now you believe that this leads to established KDs "farming" newer or more casual KDs for win bonuses.

    In a reverse situation, wouldn't this be a learning curve for the so called mid tier to learn from more established KDs, even through loss, how to compete at the top, and forcing established KDs into the war meta instead of spending yr0-3 setting up a cow and subsequently making the game more competitive in general instead of their being tiers? I may be completely wrong, hence why I am asking.

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  7. #97
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    One suggestion I have, and obviously this will need to be thought out a lot more is to allow KD's to recover losses based on pre-war totals. But not otherwise give a boost to growth.

    Right now EOWCF tries to approximate that, give a bunch of training and econ bonuses so a KD can recover the losses from a war and prevent wars being disincentivised.

    Why not get straight to the point. Game just keeps track of everyone's acres, wizards, thieves, military units at war start.

    At end of the war, you get to keep what you gained (hence the winners get a bonus) but both sides get credits, or just straight up an option to get back everything they lost.

    So you started war with 1k acres, 1000 each of wizards, thieves, off specs, elites, and def specs.

    If you ended the war with 500 acres, 200 wizards, 750 thieves, 1500 of specs, 500 elites, and 2000 def specs, you get award "credits" or just automatically get given back, 500 acres, 800 wizards, 250 thieves, 0 off specs (because you gained), 500 elites, and o def specs (because you gained).

    There, you get to keep any acres or additional units you managed to grab during a war, but no lengthy recovery time since KDs that lost get to recover their losses, but the "war bonus" doesn't give you anything above and beyond not warring, so no pressing need to war, yet no disincentive to warring.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    So if i am understanding you correctly, the gate to get into the top is to have the coordination to set up a cow, and with the current meta making that hard, KDs are forced to war. Now you believe that this leads to established KDs "farming" newer or more casual KDs for win bonuses.

    In a reverse situation, wouldn't this be a learning curve for the so called mid tier to learn from more established KDs, even through loss, how to compete at the top, and forcing established KDs into the war meta instead of spending yr0-3 setting up a cow and subsequently making the game more competitive in general instead of their being tiers? I may be completely wrong, hence why I am asking.

    -DM <3
    Getting tricked in to a war with a top KD and getting stomped isn't going to teach anyone to play at the top. Most KDs have "lost" before the age has even started due to their setup. They either don't have the ability or the desire to compete and that's fine.

  9. #99
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    So you feel that established KDs "trick" less experienced KDs into war for the bonus? Is it a matter of lack of respect for your opponent or bad sportsmanship?

    To use my own example, our SoA war ended with a great 4 day discussion between KDs about what we could've done better on both sides, what worked, and how well it worked in comparison to other tactics. The sharing of experience is is a great way to shore up weaknesses and connect with other players, of course theirs a winner, but all players left with a good feeling; more about playing the game and having fun in a competitive atmosphere than trying to benefit off of one's back per say.

    The information is there, let's say the more established KD won outright from the get go, wouldn't the losing KD at least be able to learn from their mistakes? Or try to imitate the strategies they lost too?


    -DM <3
    Last edited by Zombies are people too; 22-11-2017 at 05:16.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    So you feel that established KDs "trick" less experienced KDs into war for the bonus? Is it a matter of lack of respect for your opponent or bad sportsmanship?

    To use my own example, our SoA war ended with a great 4 day discussion between KDs about what we could've done better on both sides, what worked, and how well it worked in comparison to other tactics. The sharing of experience is is a great way to shore up weaknesses and connect with other players, of course theirs a winner, but all players left with a good feeling; more about playing the game and having fun in a competitive atmosphere than trying to benefit off of one's back per say.

    The information is there, let's say the more established KD won outright from the get go, wouldn't the losing KD at least be able to learn from their mistakes? Or try to imitate the strategies they lost too?


    -DM <3
    It's a matter of you need to win wars to get ahead and that is the easiest way to do it. If you come OOP looking too strong most KDs won't want to war you and you end up stagnating while your competitors get a war win and jump ahead.

    You can 100% share tactics and suggestions to improve, but there is more to being at the top than that. The ridiculous amounts of time that is needed to calculate and decide strategies, as well as manage all the provinces in the KD, is too much for a lot of players to bother with. Is your KD setting alarms and calling each other at 3am to wake up and attack before you get hit army home? That might not appeal to a large portion of the player base.

    The war win bonus and province pool forces the top KDs to beat on the KDs that just want to have some fun since that is the way to get ahead now.

  11. #101
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    I guess I see what you're trying to say, that you believe the current meta is leeching off less established teams is the easy route to top ranks, whether or not it's good sportsmanlike conduct, so how would that be rectified? The old system wasn't truly working as intended either, so instead of us crying out, "The system is effed" should we and the developers be working together to answer the question "How can we make it more balanced and competitive?"

    Goals differ from individual to individual; me personally, an age where we end 4/4 or 4/5 is a good age for me, acres etc are just resources to get me to the next war. Some players like growth though, and seeing their resource and size increase is important. Without a War win bonus, both myself and the example party lose out; myself as it takes me longer to get ready for another war, even if i am the victor, and the other party loses incentive to war altogether, as one of my teammates jokingly likes to classify them as "Muh acres!" players weighs the costs of war with just sitting in normal and growing and chooses the latter maybe? Shrug.

    How do you please both parties without this said reward? Or how would this system be replaced with something that doesn't force such unsportmanlike conduct as tricking a less organized KD into conflict just to compete later on with a similarly experienced KD for ranking purposes?

    -DM <3
    Last edited by Zombies are people too; 22-11-2017 at 06:06.
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    I guess I see what you're trying to say, that you believe the current meta is leeching off less established teams is the easy route to top ranks, whether or not it's good sportsmanlike conduct, so how would that be rectified? The old system wasn't truly working as intended either...
    When you summarise them like that it loses all its context. It isn't leeching off less established teams, organised KDs intentionally start weaker so they are not far ahead of the pack, thus granting them the possibility to get into a war OOP with a nearby target. Early war = early war bonus. This isn't about picking on someone smaller, its about(chances of) picking on someone early.

    It has nothing to do with sportsmanship. It works the same as ELO in other games. When there is a reset, the battles would often not be balanced at the start, until everyone settles into their own tier. The weaker competition losing is part of the natural process.

  13. #103
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    Sorry, I don't intend to lose the context so much as make heads or tails of it lol.

    That is no different than in any other league if I'm reading it right, it is a natural process for weaker teams to end up at the bottom of the ranks, with stronger teams heading to the top. That said I don't understand how the meta is the problem, nor how those weaker teams cannot improve with drafting, cuts, and practice compared to an earlier comment about there always being the top and everyone else is irrelevant, but the current reward system is to blame for this taking longer, or involving unsportsmanlike conduct through trickery to speed up the process.

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  14. #104
    Post Fiend DjTeddySpin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    ... but the current reward system is to blame for this taking longer, or involving unsportsmanlike conduct through trickery to speed up the process.

    -DM <3
    Maybe you're going about the wrong way. You can't bridge the difference in skill / activity / experience. When you force teams of unequal strength to fight in the same arena you get what happened as described above during OOP. Also, not everyone wants to improve from their current state or play at a high level.

  15. #105
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    Not to be argumentative, but isn't that like saying the Sabres shouldn't be playing in the same division as Tampa Bay this season? I'm assuming all KDs who go to war OOP are not being forced to do so if they choose not to, with the current mechanics in place, and maybe thats where I'm wrong.

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