The Cavalier Club: A Discussion on Fair War Practice

[Chris121]

Even if they, for some reason, didn't get deleted for it they would almost certainly get GBed.

That may be so but it is an entirely different issue to whether it is against the rules or not.

[Zombies are people too]

Good Morning Utopia and welcome back to another day in Cavalier's Club, where we discuss the issues and the less absolute areas of what is considered Fair Play.

A lot of great discussion here, and here's a few highlights:

You're not designating any excluded provinces. You're just banning certain destructive operations like AW, propaganda, fireballs, massacres, razes, abducts, traditional marches, conquests, etc.

If I'm understanding correctly you are banning every destructive operation whilst you protect your province and/or science pump. So that is the same as excluding every province. There would be no attacks taking place during this war you are referring to...so it's obviously (IMHO) not permitted.

Body contact is a part of Hockey, some leagues choose to disallow body contact, while this is a change to the match, and adds more infractions to penalize, you still have to play Hockey to win the match. Do you, the viewers believe this applies to Utopia? Discuss!

I see it's against the rules to "create a false identity for the purpose of misleading others." Does this apply to top kingdoms masquerading as ghettos early in the age to bait easy war wins?

There is no rule to identify your own KD. So if they are merely not using their normal name and/or not using a theme and/or not building up their provinces fully, I don't see how that is against the rules.
If they actively seek out other ghettos to lie "hey, we are a newly formed KD. we are not active but would like a fair war to try to learn" then I would say that's illegal.

I have read opinions that the new mechanics of a War Win bonus has changed the way we conduct ourselves once the Protection drops. Would you agree? Have any examples that you wish to add to the discussion? Post them! :D

In the scenario Sweetiepie mentioned, If two KDs are warring, but made a private agreement as to terms for the war, and other KD broke said terms, which I think there's general agreement amongst the community that breaking deals is considered bad form - is it appropriate for third parties (whether an alliance, or a friendly Kingdom, or the "Utopia Police") to impose punitive actions afterwards?

The problem with that would be that deal breaks don't necessarily have to be in war. So you could have a big KD deal breaking a small KD. If that happens, it's pretty hard to meaningfully deal with it yourself without damaging your own interests even more (eg you could do your best to attack one of their provs / mess up their plans, but ultimately you will probably end up having more of your provs razed or something.

But realistically, most of the time most KDs just have to hope that the KDs they make deals with will stick to them. If not, make a note and don't trust them next time. Some players are known to be fairly trustworthy with deals, some are less so. So think about who you are dealing with :)

I'm sure the issue at hand has been experienced from both sides by the majority of KDs in Utopia, what are your thoughts?

and finally..

@Everyone: There were a few comments throughout the thread that suggest people are taking the mod answers more seriously ("green" mods and "yellow" mods). I'm not sure they have any more insight on the cheating related issues than anyone else, but of course their views are welcome and helpful, particularly as players with, generally, a lot of experience in the game.

All your input, players and moderators alike, is welcome and shouldn't hold precedence over the other in spirit of the open discussion. I personally value all your contributions on the issues our players have brought up and I'm sure our viewers do to :D

Speaking of which, let's open the floor! New questions, examples, or relative input on the subjects discussed above for another day on the Cavalier Club! :D

-DM<3

[octobrev]

Welp, if nobody else has anything let's take this red line we aren't supposed to cross and continue fashioning it into a hula hoop.

Is it alright to use an enemy kingdom's player to initiate a "real" war if they have no idea they're helping you do it? For example, my Get-That-Button-You-Needed-In-Three-Easy-Steps methodology uses only a phone number:



Surely we are operating legally now, right?

[Zombies are people too]

Thank you @octobrev for bringing up a really valid topic; third party communications.

While newer KDs may stick to the ingame communications, a lot of experienced players tend to take the community onto other platforms. WhatsApp, Slack, Face Book and other platforms are currently used to keep in touch with friends, teammates and adversaries outside the realm of Utopia. While this is a great way to grow, connect and socialize with each other, can it lead to exploitation and abuse?

The Floor is Open! :D

-DM <3

[FATstrat]

I don't want DavidC spying on my inter-KD sexting.

But seriously why would you allow your comms to be seen with such different opinions on rules around war. If you consider a plan that crosses the line it could be game over.

[elicenco]

Hi

What about this one, in regards to breaking the rules ?

Short summary:
My kd is 8:12; we're a small kd, rebuilding, with a few inactives.
5:16 starts bullying us for a few days, until we decide to fight them (for the fun of it and team building).
When they see they can't actually win this one, they decide to call for outside help in order to PK.

Since when are fake wars not allowed, but cheating in this way perfectly ok ?
I really think that this is one of the reasons why this game is dying... players doing this kind of cr*p ruin the game for everyone else.

April 3 of YR2 Mr Pink (8:12) captured 15 acres of land from This is The Lady (5:16).
April 3 of YR2 This Is The Ballistic (5:16) invaded FFA (8:12) and captured 22 acres of land.
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 15 acres of Mr Fuchsia (8:12).
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 15 acres of Mr Fuchsia (8:12).
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 12 acres of Mr Fuchsia (8:12).
April 3 of YR2 Alas, the once proud province of Mr Fuchsia has collapsed and lies in ruins.
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 30 acres of Mr Grey (8:12).
April 4 of YR2 Mr Aqua (8:12) killed 10 people within This Is The Misty (5:16).
April 4 of YR2 This Is The Wings Of Fire (5:16) razed 131 acres of Mr Atomic Tangerine (8:12).

Later edit: And we do have a reply from the dude in 8:4 saying that when a friend asks for help, he will come to his aid...

Thanks,
Alex

[changeling]

Hi

What about this one, in regards to breaking the rules ?

Short summary:
My kd is 8:12; we're a small kd, rebuilding, with a few inactives.
5:16 starts bullying us for a few days, until we decide to fight them (for the fun of it and team building).
When they see they can't actually win this one, they decide to call for outside help in order to PK.

Since when are fake wars not allowed, but cheating in this way perfectly ok ?
I really think that this is one of the reasons why this game is dying... players doing this kind of cr*p ruin the game for everyone else.

April 3 of YR2 Mr Pink (8:12) captured 15 acres of land from This is The Lady (5:16).
April 3 of YR2 This Is The Ballistic (5:16) invaded FFA (8:12) and captured 22 acres of land.
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 15 acres of Mr Fuchsia (8:12).
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 15 acres of Mr Fuchsia (8:12).
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 12 acres of Mr Fuchsia (8:12).
April 3 of YR2 Alas, the once proud province of Mr Fuchsia has collapsed and lies in ruins.
April 3 of YR2 Hive Mind 9 (8:4) razed 30 acres of Mr Grey (8:12).
April 4 of YR2 Mr Aqua (8:12) killed 10 people within This Is The Misty (5:16).
April 4 of YR2 This Is The Wings Of Fire (5:16) razed 131 acres of Mr Atomic Tangerine (8:12).

Later edit: And we do have a reply from the dude in 8:4 saying that when a friend asks for help, he will come to his aid...

Thanks,
Alex

With regards to the rules, the rule - in the broadest terms I believe is, don't abuse game mechanics in ways they were not intended.
However, the war mechanics were specifically designed such that it is unprofitable to attack into a war, but not impossible. So by design, hitting into wars to cause damage is actually allowed and hence not breaking the rules of the game.

That said, interesting question here. It would be possible for a KD to set up, essentially what would be a "fake war" in terms of benefit to one side, by having outside KDs interfere right?

For example, 1) Agree to a normal war with normal conditions that looks winnable, maybe even with someone substantially bigger 2) partner with an external KD and specifically plan to raze into the war from Day 1, thereby arranging it so that the result is predetermined in your favor and reap the benefits of war win (and potentially be able to farm, just by max gaining until min-time, letting an external KD do the actual fighting to win wars for you.

My guess at the answer is of course, it depends, and there would be a look to determine whether the external KD is doing so because they were aggrieved, and not planning to help the first KD, but using the same external KD for multiple wars and it'll be proof of a violation.

[Chris121]

To eliceno: Yes, within the rules. Doesn't make it fair or right though.

There are some KDs around who will help e.g. by taking on 8.4 if what you have said is legit (not doubting you but I've learnt not to trust what anyone says about a situation like this without looking myself, and I don't have a game account atm)

Are you in Price's 'colours' kd or is the theme just a coincidence?

[Chris121]

Changeling: the rules would allow the devs to go either way on it as it could come within the spirit of the game etc. But it doesn't really matter as players would self enforce that and just take both kds out if they do it consistantly :)

[drakon]

Welp, if nobody else has anything let's take this red line we aren't supposed to cross and continue fashioning it into a hula hoop.

Is it alright to use an enemy kingdom's player to initiate a "real" war if they have no idea they're helping you do it? For example, my Get-That-Button-You-Needed-In-Three-Easy-Steps methodology uses only a phone number:



Surely we are operating legally now, right?

hahahaha!! i almost fell off the couch at step 3 :D

[Bo To]

With regards to the rules, the rule - in the broadest terms I believe is, don't abuse game mechanics in ways they were not intended.
However, the war mechanics were specifically designed such that it is unprofitable to attack into a war, but not impossible. So by design, hitting into wars to cause damage is actually allowed and hence not breaking the rules of the game.

That said, interesting question here. It would be possible for a KD to set up, essentially what would be a "fake war" in terms of benefit to one side, by having outside KDs interfere right?

For example, 1) Agree to a normal war with normal conditions that looks winnable, maybe even with someone substantially bigger 2) partner with an external KD and specifically plan to raze into the war from Day 1, thereby arranging it so that the result is predetermined in your favor and reap the benefits of war win (and potentially be able to farm, just by max gaining until min-time, letting an external KD do the actual fighting to win wars for you.

My guess at the answer is of course, it depends, and there would be a look to determine whether the external KD is doing so because they were aggrieved, and not planning to help the first KD, but using the same external KD for multiple wars and it'll be proof of a violation.

Actually that is allowed especially if the 2 KDs have history with the KD being GB. War protection is not full - hitting into wars hurts and you do it only if you actually have history with one of the KDs. I have been on both sides about this :).

[Zombies are people too]

Greeting Utopians! We're back for another episode of the Cavalier's Club! A lot of discussion and laughs abound as the issues on fair play are debated! Here's a few highlights from the previous episode.

..When they see they can't actually win this one, they decide to call for outside help in order to PK.

..My guess at the answer is of course, it depends, and there would be a look to determine whether the external KD is doing so because they were aggrieved, and not planning to help the first KD, but using the same external KD for multiple wars and it'll be proof of a violation.

.. the rules would allow the devs to go either way on it as it could come within the spirit of the game etc. But it doesn't really matter as players would self enforce that and just take both kds out if they do it consistantly(sic) :)

.. that is allowed especially if the 2 KDs have history with the KD being GB. War protection is not full - hitting into wars hurts and you do it only if you actually have history with one of the KDs. I have been on both sides about this :).

Do grudges and bad history supersede good sportsmanship in player's eyes? Should the mechanics be altered or is this a realm where the players should be allowed to police and reap their own form of justice? Opinions? Post and discuss! :D

[octobrev]

Grudges and history are the only reasons most of us keep playing. If I wanted to have fun and unwind, I would play minecraft alone.

[elicenco]

To eliceno: Yes, within the rules. Doesn't make it fair or right though.

There are some KDs around who will help e.g. by taking on 8.4 if what you have said is legit (not doubting you but I've learnt not to trust what anyone says about a situation like this without looking myself, and I don't have a game account atm)

Are you in Price's 'colours' kd or is the theme just a coincidence?

Yes, I am in Price's 'colours' kd. So far we've had 8:1 kill one of our provs, not just 8:4. Razes from them are still ongoing...
At least this is motivating the kd to keep fighting, haven't had a war this long in a few years (:

[Chris121]

To clarify my response to changeling: The bit I was saying might be against the rules was the hypothetical example changeling gave of 2 Kds agreeing to raze into each others wars to help each other throughout the age. Razes into wars due to grudges is within the rules AFAIK.

Although I just looked at the rules and whilst there is a section on "fair and honorable play", the detail it gives doesn't cover this situation and i'm not sure it is clear whether not playing fairly/honorably is by itself against the rules when it doesn't come within the points listed (eg language / manipulation of bugs etc).

To eliceno: With the above in mind, if your KD genuinely didn't do anything to lead to KDs razing into your wars, you could try reporting it to the support email and asking if that is permitted by the rules / fair and honorable play and see what happens. I note that 8:4's KD name yesterday was "28 razes for hire". In any case, it isn't fun. I've warred your KD before and had no issues with your KD. Good luck.

@Zombies: The "sic" in your quote of me made me actually lol.