Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 127

Thread: The Cavalier Club: A Discussion on Fair War Practice

  1. #91
    Forum Addict
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    Final warning, kiddo.


    -DM <3
    Or what?
    What exactly are you threatening me with?
    Are you trying to mislead people into thinking you're a mod?

  2. #92
    Forum Addict
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by changeling View Post

    I guess you've also proven a point about why fake wars are defined so vaguely. Define it too narrowly, and because some people are jerks, they'll find a way to game the system.

    .
    This.
    Looks like you finally understood my point.
    And now you understand why I do not care what other players do or think. Because it comes down to the devs.
    Exactly as I said earlier, those who want to manipulate the rules do not like analogue, they like digital, black and white, so they can find a way round it.

  3. #93
    Enthusiast Zombies are people too's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    408
    What a great day full of ideas, discussions, and insights! Amazing read people! And a special appearance from our very own Strategy Moderator, @Persain! Thank you for your valid and thoughtful input! :D

    Special thanks and hats off to @changeling and @Chris121; your thought provoking and insightful commentary was both a blast to read and hopefully gives newer players a good grasp of interaction and diplomacy when entering conflict.

    A thanks to @sl0hnd, @octobrev, @sweetiepie @Korp and @Panthira for calling in with your opinions, comments and questions.

    Got a question of your own? Post it and stick around for Late Night and tune in with me for more great discussion tomorrow on the Cavalier Club!

    -DM <3


    Last edited by Zombies are people too; 23-11-2017 at 07:38.
    Co-host of the daily talk thread "Meme-Dumpster-Fire"
    The House of Eargasms has moved to Discord! Come Join the MUTINY!!!

    #MUTINY-FM
    https://discord.gg/Y76paHZ

    H.O.E
    http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...se-of-Eargasms

  4. #94
    Regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    89
    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    Im not the owners nor bishop so i cant officially say "here are the xyz criteria you have to meet to be called a fake war. However the whole point of the game is to have fun, and if people are having fun w/out griefing anyone or effecting any "rankings" your going to be hard pressed to be determined a cheater.


    AW is war/hostile only i IMAGINE that'd be fine to do, but as soon as you start getting high honor or wars start to be the main time you pump wpa expect that IF reported there will likely be consequences (like do it 1 war for fun no biggy....do it all wars in an age i bet u get deleted even if u arent ranking). Theres a huge difference between 2 kds in at 3/6 and 2/5 low war tier saying, man we've had a hard run of things how about lets do no aw this war. And 2 kds like my own and freakstyle saying...."yea yea no aw this war right" when we're both high honor and both really just want to do it to put honor on our mystics. Its again why fake wars are decided by real people looking at things.

    Remember a war has to be reported before its looked at. If you agree to terms and stuff is strange enough to get a report there's a good chance you were probubly close enough to that line that if deleted you just should suck it u and try to move on. Also worth noting is that
    just becuase a war is beneficial to both sides doesnt make it fake, dodging a kd, 'hiding' in war has in the past been deemed fine as long as both sides are actively waring and trying to win. You cross into the ream of fake when the sole purpose is to hide and its not a real fight but a stall or when 2 people who are clearly friends enter war with the intent to boost one of them.
    Thanks Persain, even though you might not be able to make an official statement, it's great and reassuring to hear that these decisions are made by real people, and who have a wealth of experience actually playing the game to be able to make the judgment calls and recognize something problematic and something not. My original worry was that with recent deletions and spam, it was hard to tell from just looking from the outside whether KD to KD diplomacy would have to be curtailed, but it is useful to know that, for example, we don't have to worry about messaging around for an OOP war and pointing out it would be mutually beneficial to both the winner and loser whoever it may be, etc.

    Sometimes from the outside looking in, all you see is, for example, a KD complaining in the forums about being deleted for something, but it's those soft factors that make the real difference in the decision made - and it's hard to suss it out just from after reports.

  5. #95
    Regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    89
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetiepie View Post
    This.
    Looks like you finally understood my point.
    And now you understand why I do not care what other players do or think. Because it comes down to the devs.
    Exactly as I said earlier, those who want to manipulate the rules do not like analogue, they like digital, black and white, so they can find a way round it.
    Thanks Sweetiepie =) You're right, it does come down to the Devs, and all of the arguing and flaming and trolling in the forums are just noise at the end of the day. In this thread, we have Persain kindly taking the time to provide lots of helpful information and feedback now (which I want to thank him for again), so we're getting some real insight into the practices and goals of the people who really set the rules.

  6. #96
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by changeling View Post
    Thanks Sweetiepie =) You're right, it does come down to the Devs, and all of the arguing and flaming and trolling in the forums are just noise at the end of the day. In this thread, we have Persain kindly taking the time to provide lots of helpful information and feedback now (which I want to thank him for again), so we're getting some real insight into the practices and goals of the people who really set the rules.
    Persain is just a moderator for strategy.

  7. #97
    Regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    89
    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    Persain is just a moderator for strategy.
    Yes, he disclosed that his answers can't be taken as official final answers. That said, still provides guidance from someone who interacts with and knows the actual devs better so still valuable.

  8. #98
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by changeling View Post
    Yes, he disclosed that his answers can't be taken as official final answers. That said, still provides guidance from someone who interacts with and knows the actual devs better so still valuable.
    He does?

  9. #99
    Needs to get out more
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Oh
    Posts
    8,976
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombies are people too View Post
    Guys.. I thank you for your answers >.<, you're missing the point of the thread. DO I really have to point out that it's a loaded question and just given as an example to give other posters, maybe newer ones, a template on what could be an infraction?


    -DM <3
    I'll confess I'm not reading the bulk of the discussion. I'm of the mind you steer clear of FW in much the same way Coldhearted has stated.

    There have been instances where FW was baited and perhaps our expertise would best be spent in exposing advanced FW scenarios. There are some very intelligent people in this game who walk these lines as a rule. Naive players should understand that stepping away from the table is generally a better idea than stoking ones ego in the field of diplomacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  10. #100
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    626
    There's too much interesting stuff to reply too so I haven't had time to put all the quotes in. But:

    @Persain: I agree that the past is useful background but what I meant when I said I don't want to get involved in it is I don't trust people to post a non biased account of what happened (shown for example, by the fact that your account was almost opposite of Octobrev's).

    @Changeling's point about war being used to protect yourself from external attacks - I don't think that in itself is determinative of a fake war. For example, it's perfectly fine to choose to enter into a real war with someone because if you don't you will be or expect to be waved by some other Kd.

    @Everyone: There were a few comments throughout the thread that suggest people are taking the mod answers more seriously ("green" mods and "yellow" mods). I'm not sure they have any more insight on the cheating related issues than anyone else, but of course their views are welcome and helpful, particularly as players with, generally, a lot of experience in the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post

    AW is war/hostile only i IMAGINE that'd be fine to do, but as soon as you start getting high honor or wars start to be the main time you pump wpa expect that IF reported there will likely be consequences (like do it 1 war for fun no biggy....do it all wars in an age i bet u get deleted even if u arent ranking). Theres a huge difference between 2 kds in at 3/6 and 2/5 low war tier saying, man we've had a hard run of things how about lets do no aw this war. And 2 kds like my own and freakstyle saying...."yea yea no aw this war right" when we're both high honor and both really just want to do it to put honor on our mystics. Its again why fake wars are decided by real people looking at things.
    I don't see why it should be diffeeent for a top kd or any other kd. If 2 top Kds want to war with no AW, then providied it is stil a real war, that should be fine. And it should still be fine if one top KD decides for an entire age to agree no AW in every single war it has, provided those wars are still real.

  11. #101
    Needs to get out more
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Oh
    Posts
    8,976
    We have to keep in mind we aren't talking to the screwballs who already did trading or play at the top. We're relating what's realistic for someone wondering in like I-Am-the-Walrus Donny, bka players who don't know.

    One for instance is the theory of "precedence". Nobody in their right mind bases their diplomatic strategy on precedence. This just sets up the usual arguments of favoritism and bias. So what if there is? What are you going to do, quit? lol
    Walking into a FW trap by rationalizing precedence is akin to self mutilation. It's unnecessary.

    Let's do this instead. Do all your diplomacy outside of war. When you're nailing down meter consumption, or doing proactive CF you should minimize your desire for making sausage in war. If you're still trying to CF bullies with open CFs then you should stay far away from agreeing to anything in war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  12. #102
    Strategy Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4,201
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    I don't see why it should be diffeeent for a top kd or any other kd. If 2 top Kds want to war with no AW, then providied it is stil a real war, that should be fine. And it should still be fine if one top KD decides for an entire age to agree no AW in every single war it has, provided those wars are still real.
    The difference is those "top" kds are likely to be super competitive for the age, if they both go "sure lets not aw this war, wink wink" theres effectively collusion to manipulate the game. Its that super fine line of: Did i just war freeakstyle with no aw because its the only way i had a shot at winning or is it because we both want to build mass honor on our t/m's. Thats the super fine line that the owners have to walk and i dont envy them for that

    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    He does?
    Korp even u've interacted enough with zauper/hawk/bishop im sure to know they're reasonable enough. Somone with <200-300 posts on the forum may have no idea that the owners are just these all powerful overseers who dont really care about kd (added for clearity) politics they care about everyone having a fair shot :D
    Last edited by Persain; 25-11-2017 at 06:57.

  13. #103
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    The difference is those "top" kds are likely to be super competitive for the age, if they both go "sure lets not aw this war, wink wink" theres effectively collusion to manipulate the game. Its that super fine line of: Did i just war freeakstyle with no aw because its the only way i had a shot at winning or is it because we both want to build mass honor on our t/m's. Thats the super fine line that the owners have to walk and i dont envy them for that



    Korp even u've interacted enough with zauper/hawk/bishop im sure to know they're reasonable enough. Somone with <200-300 posts on the forum may have no idea that the owners are just these all powerful overseers who dont really care about kds
    Yea, sorry I came off douchey. it made sound as if you had some special connection to the devs (His post that is) And even though Bishop is a dear friend hes never reasonable!! :(

  14. #104
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    626
    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    The difference is those "top" kds are likely to be super competitive for the age, if they both go "sure lets not aw this war, wink wink" theres effectively collusion to manipulate the game. Its that super fine line of: Did i just war freeakstyle with no aw because its the only way i had a shot at winning or is it because we both want to build mass honor on our t/m's. Thats the super fine line that the owners have to walk and i dont envy them for that
    I am not sure i am following your point on this. If 2 top KDs agree no AW in a genuinely real war, I don't see an issue even if their purpose is that they don't want their t/ms losing / gaining less honour. I accept that that puts them in a better position to compete with other top KDs later in the age, but I still don't see how that is against the rules. I emphasise i'm talking about a genuine war where they have just agreed not to AW rather than "hey let's make this look like a genuine war without AW". I also accept that it may be very hard for the devs to actually know what is going on, but I'm talking about the principle of what is or isn't against the rules, rather than the issues in proving what has actually happened.

    There are plenty of ways in which KDs plan so that they attempt to gain a later advantage against other KDs, and they are not in themselves against the rules. And that would still be the case even if 2 KDs plan together to secure a later advantage for themselves.

  15. #105
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    us
    Posts
    2,637
    Even if they, for some reason, didn't get deleted for it they would almost certainly get GBed.
    theHERETICS - Brute Force - Sonata - Dreams - The Pulsing Trollfags - The Expendables
    Visit my home for banned, neglected, and otherwise disenfranchised players on Discord!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •