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Thread: Am I an asshole???

  1. #31
    Post Demon umajon911's Avatar
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    Tag me in boss I got this! :-p
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  2. #32
    Post Fiend Excalibus's Avatar
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    just a few points i would like to address directly to Persian.

    First point... When I got online (after work on the 15th) it was 4 pm my local time (approx), so the fact it was 1 am where your steward is, is irrelevant, he was showing online for over 2.5 hours on my end from the 15th when I got home, and right up until the time you logged in accepting the CF... I know that sounds wrong because of course his time zone is very relevant, just as what else is relevant is I had no idea what timezone he was in and my only information available was he was online and not communicating...

    No you did not wave... you initiated hostilities to which we retalled and then later you began what looked like the start of an abduction run, to which I responded with the first message, we accept that you guys continued to hit until we sent the cf, that was not the issue that caused the double quad raze... we accepted the likelhood of being waved or at least continued hits from your side as a result of choosing to let our tm's off the chain a bit to stop them going stir crazy between wars... That was not the issue again i reiterate, the issue was your steward showing as online for 2.5 - 3 hours... I have had this situation before where the bigger kingdom decides to not respond to mails but simply continue to wave until they feel they cannot get any more from it then hit the accept button...

    The double quad razes were a result of the hits your kingdom did after the CF was sent, and the perception from my side of the fence that your steward was just ignoring things... I had no idea he was not online, how could I know he was still asleep when he is showing as online? And yes I threatened continued razes and sending a dragon on you (probably when you would be at war with another kingdom) if you had not accepted the cf within the next 3 hours for a total of 5 hours of an open CF proposal... And yes the clock was ticking down on starting that dragon...


    The time taken from when i first messaged you and then our side sending your kingdom the CF proposal and all that happened in between that time was never the issue from my perspective. it's what transpired (both actual and perceived) afterwards that I take issue with...

    Quad raze a chained province that quad abducted hell yeah! Threaten a follow up 10 minutes later if the ONLINE showing steward does not accept the CF? you better believe it...

    But if you like here is the timeframe from our side with first hit being from Murse in the 4th, which we double retal abducted i'll just post the summary for your kingdoms hits
    ** Kingdom news report **
    For the time from July 4 of YR4 till January 17 of YR5 - 38 hours - initial hit 4th, then the start of an abduction run on the 13th
    ** The kingdom of **
    Total land exchanged: -69 (23/13)
    - Lord High Admiral (2/0)
    - Professional Snuggler (1/0)
    - Professional Poker Player (1/0)
    - Chief of Unicorn Division (1/0)
    - An unknown province (2/0)
    -33 RubAndTugHandMasseuse (4/1)
    -38 Murse (4/4)
    -51 Drunk with a gun (2/2)
    -132 Loli Streamer (6/6)

    The reason for the withdrawal and repost of the cf (in the same tick actually within minutes of each other) was a duration thing, the initial timeframe would have ended in 20 hours or so, i resubmitted it with max duration...

    I have no problems with you guys... but after your message telling me i was an asshole for double quad razing, i thought hmmm perhaps I am being an asshole and so come here seeking other peoples opinions on the matter... We stand up for ourselves, we have had to stand on our own a lot to be honest... going through from the lower tiers to upper mid can be a painful experience at times... But i want you to know the razes were intended to inflict reasonable damage on provinces that would quickly recover from them or we would have targeted razes on high gains provinces instead of your already chained guys who lost the least amount per raze...
    Last edited by Excalibus; 14-12-2017 at 09:09. Reason: typos - anyone got stickers for keys??? :D

  3. #33
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
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    You are horribly bad at this diplo part at least and should count yourself lucky that you only got 20 hours of abducts.

  4. #34
    Post Fiend Excalibus's Avatar
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    it's funny cos today another 6.5M kingdom (to our 5M) decided to do an abduct run on us as well... Right now the meter is on 13(us) 14(them), one of their provinces is now 20 scientists less after 2 of us our guys quad abducted him, we have lost approx 3 scientists net overall and now I wait for their monarch to get online to negotiate a CF...

    We do not bend over and take it like some kingdoms do, we have a kingdom visible war meter for a reason and our guys use it and know the guidelines when it comes to a bigger kingdom hitting into us, as such we do not give bigger kingdoms the button unless we want to take it to war with them most of the time...

  5. #35
    Utopia Talk Moderator Allanon's Avatar
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    You seem to have a rather overinflated opinion of yourself and your kingdom. I just hope you post here complaining when a kingdom shows you what happens when you try that on a decent kd that's not mid-pump, cos I will laugh my friggin ass off.
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  6. #36
    Post Fiend Excalibus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    You are horribly bad at this diplo part at least and should count yourself lucky that you only got 20 hours of abducts.
    Apparently I must be...

    So Korp, how about you further the discussion and explain and educate us all on how you would handle this situation (from both sides of the fence)...

    Saying I am horribly bad at diplomacy, without actually quantifying that statement means nothing... Quantify it and then explain how it can be done better... While achieving the same goals of not bending over and just taking it from larger kingdoms, and successfully deterring a kingdom from wanting to delay accepting a CF proposal.

  7. #37
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    Apparently I must be...

    So Korp, how about you further the discussion and explain and educate us all on how you would handle this situation (from both sides of the fence)...

    Saying I am horribly bad at diplomacy, without actually quantifying that statement means nothing... Quantify it and then explain how it can be done better... While achieving the same goals of not bending over and just taking it from larger kingdoms, and successfully deterring a kingdom from wanting to delay accepting a CF proposal.
    I have plenty of times you just have to read my posts. But you seem incapable of grasping or understand others peoples pov cause you are so arrogant that you think people should dance after everry single tune of your pipe. You're not in a position where you can make demands cause you're the one that needs the CF most hten things like threatning them wouldnt work nor make demands that should accept the CF within x amount of time. cause you got no leverage. Your excuse that you targetted chained provs cause it would less harm is also bull**** cause thats where they do most harm. Razing a big province isnt much of a big dela cause they are in good condition already while a chained prov already struggles with getting back on theirs. You are simple a coward that just kicks on people that just struggling already. But I am sure your and your kingdom is hapyp that you caused so much grief to your own kingdom.

    Simply put, you should just waited for them to accept the CF.

  8. #38
    Post Fiend Excalibus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allanon View Post
    You seem to have a rather overinflated opinion of yourself and your kingdom. I just hope you post here complaining when a kingdom shows you what happens when you try that on a decent kd that's not mid-pump, cos I will laugh my friggin ass off.
    Perhaps I do... shrugs... And no i don't complain about a bigger kingdom waving us or whatever, heck if you feel that is what this thread is about you really have missed the whole point... It wasn't a complaint thread about anything, it's me asking the community if standing up for yourself as a kingdom, and not just bending over taking it etc is being an asshole... If quad razing for really minimal damage compared to what we could have done if we went for high gains targets instead makes me an asshole...

    if giving a timeframe along with a threat of what inaction will bring with it, to get something in place when the person who can do something about the situation appears as online but not communicating and then more importantly following through with the consequences for inaction makes me an asshole???

    My ego is in check...

    I just do not suffer fools nor bullies to be fair and Persian and his kingdom was not being a bully in any of this just to be clear on that fact.

    If anything one of our guys hit into them prior to the abduct from murse on the 4th... I don't have the intel in front of me right now but it was sometime earlier perhaps the month prior...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    So Korp, how about you further the discussion and explain and educate us all on how you would handle this situation (from both sides of the fence)...
    A good start would be not waiting many hours to offer the CF and then expecting them to accept it immediately (regardless of whether they are showing online or not), and certainly not making threats immediately when they didn't.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    just a few points i would like to address directly to Persian.

    First point...--1
    No you did not wave...--2
    The double quad razes...--3
    1. Pointis when you take 16 hours to respond to someone who sends you a msg 3 hours after asking for a cf saying 'i'll be on and off all day we'll accept when you send it" be aware not everyone is in your timezone. you're cearly an aussie we have a few of them, my msg to you saying we'd cf was at similarlly at 1am your time and i didnt ***** and moan you didnt respond to me by 4 am your time.

    2.Exactly we didnt wave you got randomed, retalled the hits u placed back. And with 1 hit in 3 hours after u sent a cf 16 hours after we agreed to cf you, your just being stupid to respond the way you did.

    3.you lucky im an active leader and nice, any other player in my kd would likely demand a full wave after being treated the way you guys treated us and you msged me. our kds were <5% differnt in land and setup that the only people you could pk we wouldn't care if u tried so pounding u into an apology wouldnt exactly be hard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    The time taken from when i first messaged you and then our side sending your kingdom the CF proposal and all that happened in between that time was never the issue from my perspective. it's what transpired (both actual and perceived) afterwards that I take issue with...

    Quad raze a chained province that quad abducted hell yeah! Threaten a follow up 10 minutes later if the ONLINE showing steward does not accept the CF? you better believe it...
    And this is the perfect example of you not being a good leader in your exchange with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    ..... but after your message telling me i was an asshole for double quad razing, i thought hmmm perhaps I am being an asshole and so come here seeking other peoples opinions on the matter...
    and i go back to
    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    I have plenty of times you just have to read my posts. But you seem incapable of grasping or understand others peoples pov cause you are so arrogant
    i.e. most other people would agree u were being an asshole. For example i know korps kd, if i treated his kd like you treated me, we'd be geting someone pk'ed no qeustions asked.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    A good start would be not waiting many hours to offer the CF and then expecting them to accept it immediately (regardless of whether they are showing online or not), and certainly not making threats immediately when they didn't.
    the right way to handle it was basically this. A conversation could of been like this.

    1.When you intiailly msged use you could have said "we wont war please dont overhit us and accept the cf asap" then sent a cf right away. (note "CF which i do expect to be accepted immediately"<---thats NOT what you say.)
    2.Handle it like you did initially waiting 16 hours to send a cf. When the cf is sent and not accepted in 3 hours msg back both monarch/steward with a small lie. "sorry i had a busy day and couldnt get around to sending the cf very fast. I've sent it now please accept the cf and move on you've hit us a ton. If you take to long you risk pissing off my guys and they'll want revenge later in the age". ---Here u wait till we do lots of hits or msg back being a jerk before acting how u did.
    Last edited by Persain; 14-12-2017 at 10:58.

  11. #41
    Post Fiend Excalibus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    If you didnt want to war them dont op them, that will just agitate them. Which shows right? Maybe if you didnt op them nor raze them you might gotten your CF much faster. You seem to think that you're in a position of power in this situation which is wrong.
    So send a blank CF and accept the real possibility of basically being hosed without recourse while I am asleep? Militarily, we could hit up into them, it was ultimately my decision to let our tm's have some fun that led to us delaying the offer of a CF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    You send mixed signals, if I was the kd that you wanteted to CF i would have waved you again. You claim you want a CF but you dont show it by "letting your tms have some fun" and raze them. Since you're the in the position that you want the CF you should make no demands as in accept a CF in certain time frame or not.
    There was no raze until much later... During the intervening hours they made 23 hits and we sent out 5 retals... none of that is an issue, our kingdom made 28 hits out during the timeframe and took 34 hits in over that sane timeframe. I get your point on us wanting the CF, only because we had our own agenda and did not need to be fed off of (prior to this abduction run starting on the 13th we took a wave from another significantly larger kingdom relative to us at the time...

    I take issues with kingdoms that want to significantly bottom feed thinking they will get a free lunch... I tend to topfeed as a province and prefer kingdom war targets to be a close fight...2 of our 3 wars this age were similar nw and size kingdoms, one was neck a neck for a week, before our enemy got the upper hand, the second was against a much more organised and superior war kingdom that was only slightly larger than us at the time of declaration... The one war we had against a vastly inferior (to us) kingdom was when they gave us the button... we pushed it...


    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    Why do you make a post when you refuse to listen to any other persons opinion?

    I do actually listen to other peoples points of view Korp, I just wonder why you feel that standing up for yourself and your kingdom, not simply giving out black cf offers etc is bad diplomacy...

    Here is the initial message I sent...

    Game Date July 21 of YR4
    Real Date Mon, 11 Dec at 14:53 GMT+00:00
    Sender King Scallipus the Hero of Returning to kick azz
    Recipient Baron Felix Chestercrisp the Rogue of Professional Camboy
    Subject we are not going to war at this time

    as the title says, we are not going to war at this time so I will offer you guys a CF which i do expect to be accepted immediately
    cheers

    I did not state when the CF would be offered... I did state my expectations of it being immediately accepted once it was offered... Of course once their steward or monarch was online after the CF proposal was appears in the news. It was posted to their steward as he was online at the time and his response was he would accept the cf once it was proposed etc...

    As they had already pushed it past hostile at this point in time, I chose to let our TM's off the chain... a choice I made for the reasons I already mentioned in an earlier post... Their continuing hits during that time is a non issue from my perspective...


    Quote Originally Posted by Allanon View Post
    As Korp said, if you told me you weren't going to war us and then let your guys op for 10 hours, I would have done another wave or two to ram the point home that if you don't want to war, send the cf promptly and don't mess around. If you then raze my guys, I'd start getting creative.

    I won't call you an asshole (not least of reasons for which is I'm the guy on these subforums who's supposed to say "hey, don't call him an asshole"), but rather I'd say you made a move intended to inflame the situation rather than resolve it quickly, and then got nasty when they reacted in a reasonable way by continuing to hit. Fortunately for you, this time the other kd doesn't seem to have been the type to get nasty back.
    We accepted the consequences of not sending the CF immediately to allow our TM's to stretch their legs... That was never an issue...



    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    The aggressor isnt interested in a CF; besides that leaves potential for abuse. You make one wave, send CF, the enemy kd makes one wave back and then CFs. THe one party that wants the CF should be the one that offers the CF.
    The potential for abuse is there for either kingdom once one side sends a CF proposal. with the disadvantage being on the one who sends the proposal... And yes the side that wants the CF should probably send it I do agree with you on that point...



    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    But at the same time you didnt send a messages wanting a CF so then its perfectly fine. But if you would have sent them a CF asking for a CF and then dropped all your mana and stealth on them that would be a different story.
    So please see my initial message to their steward, I said I would send them a CF, did not stipulate when it would be sent etc... if I intended to send a CF immediately like I have done with other kingdoms that actually were a more significant threat, I would have done so. Had my steward not sent the CF on the 13th I would have sent it on the 15th anyway...


    Quote Originally Posted by Korp View Post
    I have plenty of times you just have to read my posts. But you seem incapable of grasping or understand others peoples pov cause you are so arrogant that you think people should dance after everry single tune of your pipe. You're not in a position where you can make demands cause you're the one that needs the CF most hten things like threatning them wouldnt work nor make demands that should accept the CF within x amount of time. cause you got no leverage. Your excuse that you targetted chained provs cause it would less harm is also bull**** cause thats where they do most harm. Razing a big province isnt much of a big dela cause they are in good condition already while a chained prov already struggles with getting back on theirs. You are simple a coward that just kicks on people that just struggling already. But I am sure your and your kingdom is hapyp that you caused so much grief to your own kingdom.

    Simply put, you should just waited for them to accept the CF.

    As you can see I have read EVERY single post... and I still am left wondering where this enlightened discussion from you educating us on the finer points of diplo that achieves the goals I mentioned before is....

    Of the chained provs that were targeted, well one of them specifically was obviously previously heavily chained yet was making quad abducts because he chose to keep all his offense and not so much defense (as happens when you get chained hard as its the best recovery strategy)... The others 2 provinces razed were not so heavily chained, and all 3 had hit into us more than once etc... so to say the acres razed (in total I think 69 on the worst chained guy and about 80 across the other 2 provinces) caused them more harm is a false claim IMHO...

    And no I am not some coward nor am I some bully boy either... Frankly I find it strange that you would feel that way over what I saw at the time as basically a bigger kingdom choosing to not communicate while showing as online and also not honour what they had said they would do when they were online. Remember, during the whole time from the 15th (I probably logged in on the 14th) prior to and after the razes from my perspective their steward was online and I waited to raze, i just did not login and go righto raze, i saw him online, waited a while (perhaps 20 mins) still nothing as far as accepting the CF went.

    How am I to know the unknowable??? How am I to interpret the situation of a province showing as online but not honouring the message they sent earlier... Apart from my own previous experiences when online people choose not to communicate - for the most part it's because they do not want to honour what they have said they would... or they want to get in one more wave / attack run before pressing accept and so forth...

    Yes I could have just waited... and had what were my perceptions and worst case scenerios been right.. what then??? Remember they continued to hit after the CF proposal. their steward showing online, other provs who had hit and had armies due back soonish logging in and out... would it be unreasonable to make the (perhaps incorrect in this case) assumption that they were planning to basically do a last mini abduct run before pressing the accept button?

    I truely welcome your response to this last paragraph korp...

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    So send a blank CF and accept the real possibility of basically being hosed without recourse while I am asleep? Militarily, we could hit up into them, it was ultimately my decision to let our tm's have some fun that led to us delaying the offer of a CF.
    yes...like i said if u did to korps kd what u did to mine u'd have 2-3 dead provs or a TON less scienece. when u let your t/m's have some fun then accept it may take us a few hours to cf back because we either may not like that OR because we simply arent looking at utopia even if they show up online.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excalibus View Post
    would it be unreasonable to make the (perhaps incorrect in this case) assumption that they were planning to basically do a last mini abduct run before pressing the accept button?
    If we did then respond after it. You had no reason to assume we wouldnt accept a cf other than 1 hit made the tick after you sent a cf. If you were sacred we'd do a mini run maybe u coulda sent a cf more than a couple hours before we were going to have armies in....it was your choice to do ops and then respond like a dick before we even had a chance to treat your kd like most others would.
    Last edited by Persain; 14-12-2017 at 11:17. Reason: edit

  13. #43
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
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    So send a blank CF and accept the real possibility of basically being hosed without recourse while I am asleep? Militarily, we could hit up into them, it was ultimately my decision to let our tm's have some fun that led to us delaying the offer of a CF.
    Thats contradicting behavior, do you know what Cease Fire means? Ofc if you delay sending Cf and then let people op them your intentions very clear. You really dont want that CF. So, you cost your kingdom additional attacks. Good job bro!


    There was no raze until much later... During the intervening hours they made 23 hits and we sent out 5 retals... none of that is an issue, our kingdom made 28 hits out during the timeframe and took 34 hits in over that sane timeframe. I get your point on us wanting the CF, only because we had our own agenda and did not need to be fed off of (prior to this abduction run starting on the 13th we took a wave from another significantly larger kingdom relative to us at the time...

    I take issues with kingdoms that want to significantly bottom feed thinking they will get a free lunch... I tend to topfeed as a province and prefer kingdom war targets to be a close fight...2 of our 3 wars this age were similar nw and size kingdoms, one was neck a neck for a week, before our enemy got the upper hand, the second was against a much more organised and superior war kingdom that was only slightly larger than us at the time of declaration... The one war we had against a vastly inferior (to us) kingdom was when they gave us the button... we pushed it...
    And you think hitting them even more would somehow magically make them more inclined to CF you? Yet again you wanted the CF, but waited 16 hours to send one and then you have the arrogance to whine that they didnt accept it the moment you wanted and threw a hizzy fit and razed them. You cant complain that they attack when you dont send a CF, plus you probably cost your kingdom even more attacks.

    I do actually listen to other peoples points of view Korp, I just wonder why you feel that standing up for yourself and your kingdom, not simply giving out black cf offers etc is bad diplomacy...
    Its not standing up for yourself when you first messages that you want a CF then proceed to op them. If you would have opped them and then sent a messages wanting a CF "or else" would be a different story.

    I did not state when the CF would be offered... I did state my expectations of it being immediately accepted once it was offered... Of course once their steward or monarch was online after the CF proposal was appears in the news. It was posted to their steward as he was online at the time and his response was he would accept the cf once it was proposed etc...
    Yet another show of your arrogance, thinking that your in a position to make any demands. The world doesnt revolve around you and your in no position to make demands.

    Yes I could have just waited... and had what were my perceptions and worst case scenerios been right.. what then??? Remember they continued to hit after the CF proposal. their steward showing online, other provs who had hit and had armies due back soonish logging in and out... would it be unreasonable to make the (perhaps incorrect in this case) assumption that they were planning to basically do a last mini abduct run before pressing the accept button?
    Remember you opped them, what you think you would get away with that?

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    so you got abduct waved that changes a lot, I don't think anyone who ever abduct waved was seriously considdering a war, that is simply a cancer that came with the exiting change from books to scientists, few cared about books and I don't think I meet a learn wave before, unfortunately universities was weakened or I would suggest running them across the board with +20% on every province since it seems that you are in the range of people doing abduct waves, a mix of gs and universities might be the better choice do not forget hospitals thougth even at 50% loses getting waved can cost you a lot of troops.

    If you can cut gains in half and take some back, as most likely the attacking kingdom goes in with force because that allows them to get the defending kingdom to bend over so they don't need to use 30-40% of their build space for defense against retals that could happen on randoms, then you'll have cut the effect of that wave to less than what randomming would have given them.

    I disagree that the defending kingdom is the one wanting cf when we are talking abduct wave, it is every bit in the attackers interest to get a cf and move on, the defender just want to be left alone, the attacker want to clear relations as to not get opped for days, neither have any real interest in warring.

    I can agree with Korp that it is not the best of diplo to send a message as the one above, and I really do not see razes to be a good decission, you assumed that their steward was online due to a star next to his name, do not assume that is always the case, personly I often run utopia in a secondary browser window and sometimes I leave my pc on, so that easily could also be the case, while some mobile apps will show you as online most of the time I think, timezones is a real factor in this game, so you should not be so desperate as to start sending ultimatums, on the other hand it is also kind of bad of them to continue hits after the cf offer has been sent, some sort of retal on those provinces who did that would be perfectly in order, again you'll want to retaliate in moderation, you can not destroy an opponent on 30% size advantage, so you don't want them to go after you for days.

    I can not however see any arrogance in those responses, I sense that it is written out of spite because you are tired of getting abduct waved for what the 10th time this age? it would be best if you could not let that shine through when you try to be diplomatic because not everyone would be understanding of getting so offensive messages, to me you sounds like a guy that might be in need of a break away from the game or atleast from leadership more than anything.

  15. #45
    Post Fiend Excalibus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    1. Pointis when you take 16 hours to respond to someone who sends you a msg 3 hours after asking for a cf saying 'i'll be on and off all day we'll accept when you send it" be aware not everyone is in your timezone. you're cearly an aussie we have a few of them, my msg to you saying we'd cf was at similarlly at 1am your time and i didnt ***** and moan you didnt respond to me by 4 am your time.

    2.Exactly we didnt wave you got randomed, retalled the hits u placed back. And with 1 hit in 3 hours after u sent a cf 16 hours after we agreed to cf you, your just being stupid to respond the way you did.

    3.you lucky im an active leader and nice, any other player in my kd would likely demand a full wave after being treated the way you guys treated us and you msged me. our kds were <5% differnt in land and setup that the only people you could pk we wouldn't care if u tried so pounding u into an apology wouldnt exactly be hard.


    And this is the perfect example of you not being a good leader in your exchange with me.



    and i go back to
    i.e. most other people would agree u were being an asshole. For example i know korps kd, if i treated his kd like you treated me, we'd be geting someone pk'ed no qeustions asked.




    the right way to handle it was basically this. A conversation could of been like this.

    1.When you intiailly msged use you could have said "we wont war please dont overhit us and accept the cf asap" then sent a cf right away. (note "CF which i do expect to be accepted immediately"<---thats NOT what you say.)
    2.Handle it like you did initially waiting 16 hours to send a cf. When the cf is sent and not accepted in 3 hours msg back both monarch/steward with a small lie. "sorry i had a busy day and couldnt get around to sending the cf very fast. I've sent it now please accept the cf and move on you've hit us a ton. If you take to long you risk pissing off my guys and they'll want revenge later in the age". ---Here u wait till we do lots of hits or msg back being a jerk before acting how u did.


    Well then I must be an asshole... righto... I can accept that... Heck I should probably embrace it right???

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