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Thread: Age 76 Proposed Changes Feedback

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattleHead View Post
    you said it probably cant even be done with 2 factors, which is completely false. I was just proving to you that it can be done with 1, and quite handily with 2, in fact. 20% rax on 75% BE and a base godspeed ritual gets you 11.8h attack time....

    and as such; if rax burning wasnt a strategy before this change, but would become one now, that kinda seems like just one of potentially many new strategies... Yes some are lost, and we are almost all partial to these attack times, but its not the end of 'variety'.

    I would be fine if they reduce the base attack time to go along with the change they have suggested as well, but i dont think its the end of the world otherwise. its just something else to consider


    PS lol @pillz
    Actually, you didn't disprove what I said that it probably can't be done with 2 factors. Keeping 20% rax on an attacker for the entirety of a war is something that probably cannot be done. Not even new rax burning strategies, just same old deep chain and raze means in a long war every attacker is likely to experience at least some point with 0 or close to 0 actually built acres.

    So yea, it probably can't be done even with 2 factors.

    Same goes for keeping an overcasted godspeed on at all times (ignoring that effectiveness drops, so unless you're literally recasting an overcasted god speed every 48 hours, you're not getting the fall attack speed boost at all times.

    Sorry if I did not add "in reality" to "can't be done with just one factor (besides avian) and probably not even two" but I pretty much assumed we were talking about "in reality."

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattleHead View Post
    Ya u certainly wont keep 12h attack time once u get chained unless u have race and/or personality, as i said before changeling stated in seemingly absolute terms that you 'could not' reach 12h without being Avian, or combining at least 3 other factors and was pointing out that is not correct. I don't disagree it will have the effects you say, but I disagree that it is so catastrophic.

    You can adjust the way you wave, so that everyone has a schedule something like 7AM, 11PM, 3PM, 7AM, but going out at different Uto-times, wow would this be variety? new strategies? from this strategy/variety destroying change? Or you could shoot for 12h attack times, but pick a race that has option to turtle, so if you get stuck sitting home you have defence? There are lots of options other than tears.

    I see the argument for people's working days, but not everyone works the same hours in a day either? Some people work 8h, some work as many as 12-16h regularly (yes im sure ppl do work more but not in my KD at least :P) ... it goes both ways.

    Both the arguments for it killing variety, and being less copacetic with the 'average' players working schedule are fundamentally flawed imo

    edit: An upside potentially, people who like to play TM will probably feel they have a greater sway over the course of a War. The game has run on nothing but offence/attacks for so long, maybe give the TMs a time to shine? I dunno

    Just responding to this again because you keep misquoting me. As I stated before and in multiple explanations to you.
    The only thing I said is you could not reach 12 hours without being Avian, with could not reach 12 hour attack times in a war consistently with any one factor, and probably without two factors. If you didn't get that "probably" also includes "in reality" implied, then let me be clear to you here - I mean you cannot reach consistent 12 hour attack times in war in reality

    Everything you've said in response so far, just prove my point - they only work in a theoretical math model, but don't as soon as you get into any real war scenario (and you miss things like how Rituals decay over time, rax percentages are diluted with incoming land, etc.


    Essentially, you're arguing against positions based on broad populations, using single anecdotal examples. But the point is whether it'll be a better change for the whole community, not whether it'll be better for specific scenarios or individuals.

    i.e. Argument - most race/personalities in Utopia will not be able to maintain 12 hour attack times in a real war scenario without specifically catering two major aspects of strategy (building + rituals) or race/personality choice (Avian, Tact) which broadly reduces choice, and therefore interest in the game. You try to argue against that by pointing out an edge case scenario involving specifically, max rax and overcharged rituals, which would not work in reality.

    Next Argument - most people work 8 hours a day, or generally, have free time early in the morning and in the evening, that would work best spaced 12 hours apart. You try to argue against that claiming some edge cases of people working irregular schedules or more hours. That doesn't address the actual point about how "most" people work - and the premise is we don't want a change that'll inconvenience "most" people - the world goes by 24 hour time, the number of people for whom "16" hour time works is not as big as those for whom 12 hours works..

  3. #93
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    24 hour attack time, double spell/op cost or make T/Ms vulnerable (for real, not theoretically).

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by changeling View Post
    16 hours was base attack time out of war, where there is no risk of being chained army home (and less at stake).
    Base attack time is and always was 16h? There was a 10%(start)-20%(after 12h) decrease in war before that has just gotten removed.


    Quote Originally Posted by changeling View Post
    And yes, saying "Godspeed/Tact" gets back to 12 h doesn't solve the problem, restricts choice for players in forcing anyone who wants to have a schedule that fits with a standard work schedule to always run the same ritual and pick the same tactician diminishes choice in the game.
    With barracks you might not need both. It's true you have to plan your picks and build around the cycles you want to run - like it used to be.
    The races are already imbalanced, this is just another thing that pigeonholes what you want to run if you don't want to run into a TM wall next age and not be able to do anything (not even a major one as it is somewhat adjustable).
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  5. #95
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    I'm going to disagree with everyone complaining about the attack time reduction in war being removed. Here is why.

    Right now, especially in the more competitive end of the server, are people actually just running base 12h attack times with no rax, no rituals, no qf, non avians? I highly doubt this is the overwhelming majority its being painted as right now. For the last couple ages I played dryad tact. I was having around 8-9 hour attack times pretty consistently. That is a lot of effort to put into wars. As you lose/gain buildings, have/don't have mana for qf, the attacking schedule is always messed up a little. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, I don't think this changes that.

    My theory is that the devs are trying to make the average/casual player be able to play more competitively without the time investment required right now. Instead of going from 12 - > 8 hr attack times, this age I'd have gone from 16 -> 11 (or something along those lines). Sure, it'll go back up at times. But we can +/- hrs (as many of us do now) to align something that works with our schedules. Or set a sitter if needed (I'd love for them to give a certain # of free sitter credits to every prov... this may help to mitigate some of the opposition).

    I can understand liking the base 12h attack times, but honestly this seems like a huge over reaction from most of you. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that most of the server works 8 hour shifts, and also runs no attack time modifications. Adjust your strategy accordingly... most of you are probably already doing it in one way or another. My only real problem with this is that is seems to give more power to T/Ms, along with the overall reduction in offense they are proposing... seems like attackers are much less important next age.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronnick View Post
    Then just take the base attack time down to 14, that still gives a lower time that you can reduce to 12 or lower in wars but it makes raxs and such actually something to consider
    This seems like the simplest way to cope with this. Maybe even only down to 15 hours, but 14 hour base attack times is nice because you can always force a 12 hour attack time with -hours. Note that I've never found precisely 12 to be enough anyway, since it takes at least a bit to turn attacks around. Being able to take dryad reliably under 12, and for that one day a week I needed 10 usually getting that with -hours... I can see an attack time increase (Attack time is their penalty - <10 hour is a little silly). The problem is how large of an increase in attack times we're going to see. Dropping to 14 hour base is a -12.5% always, distinctly slower that the -20% without being crushingly so.

    I am, btw, one of those that has the classic 9-5 type setup. I log in each morning from the train, giving me a window from 8:45 to about 9:05-9:10. If it is a busy day at work, missing this window = don't attack till evening, aka lose almost 12 hours with army sitting home. If that is going to happen repeatedly - I'm out, can't play like that.


    There used to be a lot of hate against Fog. There was, at some point, a declaration that it was never coming back because it could screw over an attacker, and force them to pick rl vs. game. The attack time change is like putting the whole server under permanent Fog.



    On the other stuff - psyched for NW gains being back. Really like that. Elite NW is looking pretty messed up for a lot of races though - I'll do my power rankings, and I think we'll see a lot of races doing worse than the "Dud" race when I put their elites in. At this point, with all the NW values continuing to go up, maybe the fix should be to increase spec NW, maybe to 1 and 1.2 from .8 and 1 it is now. Or drop elite NW some, drop T/M NW to 5, and drop the land/build NW some, which is kinda the same thing. I like the lower numbers, because seeing a 300 NW/A prov that isn't even chained is just weird to me - but it is a lot more numbers to fiddle, so spec NW up about 20% is probably better.

    Relating to NW - I think Orc elite NW isn't changed much. Unlike the inflation afflicting a lot of the others. This probably means Orc is going to be a monster. Actually - avian and dryad are ok, or at least fairly ok, on that. Keeping elites slightly less NW efficient that the specs isn't bad since they save land NW, but significantly worse is a problem.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija View Post
    Base attack time is and always was 16h? There was a 10%(start)-20%(after 12h) decrease in war before that has just gotten removed.




    With barracks you might not need both. It's true you have to plan your picks and build around the cycles you want to run - like it used to be.
    The races are already imbalanced, this is just another thing that pigeonholes what you want to run if you don't want to run into a TM wall next age and not be able to do anything (not even a major one as it is somewhat adjustable).

    The big thing that got removed was the switch to 12 hour base after the first 24 hours.

    Generally, what happened was that the declarant would start the war, and get the benefit of 10% start, and more importantly would have full buildings, so the barracks (as some have pointed out) are actually all there, and can help bring attack times down to a reasonable range. That 10% covers the first wave basically from both sides, when both sides still have full rax. The -20% after 12 hours, or second wave, would almost take attack times to 12 hours, and usually under with some minimal rax.

    However after the first 24 hours is when attackers start not being able to rely on having the runes/guilds to get QF on, start being FBed out, or having no buildings, and that's when the 12 hour base attack times tick in. Most attackers still have some rax of course, but usually those will have been run down to a small enough percentage that they're good for making the attack times more like 11.5 hours or sth (i.e. a good amount of time to also account for the time it takes to get an attack out).

    So for any war that lasts longer than min time, it actually does make a major change, and is something that essentially pigeonholes players into specific picks.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke3 View Post
    I'm going to disagree with everyone complaining about the attack time reduction in war being removed. Here is why.

    Right now, especially in the more competitive end of the server, are people actually just running base 12h attack times with no rax, no rituals, no qf, non avians? I highly doubt this is the overwhelming majority its being painted as right now. For the last couple ages I played dryad tact. I was having around 8-9 hour attack times pretty consistently. That is a lot of effort to put into wars. As you lose/gain buildings, have/don't have mana for qf, the attacking schedule is always messed up a little. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, I don't think this changes that.

    My theory is that the devs are trying to make the average/casual player be able to play more competitively without the time investment required right now. Instead of going from 12 - > 8 hr attack times, this age I'd have gone from 16 -> 11 (or something along those lines). Sure, it'll go back up at times. But we can +/- hrs (as many of us do now) to align something that works with our schedules. Or set a sitter if needed (I'd love for them to give a certain # of free sitter credits to every prov... this may help to mitigate some of the opposition).

    I can understand liking the base 12h attack times, but honestly this seems like a huge over reaction from most of you. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that most of the server works 8 hour shifts, and also runs no attack time modifications. Adjust your strategy accordingly... most of you are probably already doing it in one way or another. My only real problem with this is that is seems to give more power to T/Ms, along with the overall reduction in offense they are proposing... seems like attackers are much less important next age.
    Well you were playing Dryad. A race that was given disproportionately high offense (able to get double what most other attackers could). And +15% attack time was added as the major major counterbalance to that. As in, a +15% attack time was seen as a big enough disadvantage to justify having a race that could pump out 50% more offense (because you can't rely on a 12 hour schedule anymore, as you said, it takes a lot more time convenient with messed up schedules). Removing the 12 hour base war attack time is like giving +25% attack time to every attacker, or nearly twice the disadvantage given to Dryads, without the commensurate increase in offense.

    I'm not sure what you believe, but more likely than not, the plurality of the server does work 8 hour shifts, because, well the plurality of employees work 8 hour shifts. Right now, with 12 hour base, even a chained attacker being able to keep what little buildings he has can keep to a 12 hour schedule (you really need 11.8 or sth to get there). And the way the +- hours works, means if you dont get chained and have excess rax, you can easily add hours to get to 12 hours.

    However, if you're chained out and don't have buildings, there isn't any actual option for you to get to 12 hours, because the +- hours lets you subtract to 12 hours maximum.

  9. #99
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    On another note, other than attack speed:

    I noticed that:

    Age 76 Open: Friday April 20, 2018 @ 12:00 GMT (pushed back 6 hours to be safe, we will be migrating Multi-World Functionality code into the live code and want to ensure this all works correctly before opening the server and could take extra time)

    and
    Age 76 Final Changes: April 21, 2017


    Can I suggest that Final Changes be provided on April 20, before the age opens?

    There's not really much point opening up the age early if final changes aren't out. My understanding of the age open and start times is to allow us all time to get on, get our race/personality set ups organized etc. But if the changes aren't finalized yet, that kinda defeats the purpose - since we'll all have to scramble to reset etc. after they're finalized anyway.

    It'd be a bit confusing for people signing up for new provinces at age open, but then when asked to pick their race/pers, find out that none of those are finalized yet.

  10. #100
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    Traditional attacking races are now so bad, they are potentially not even able to break or open on the hybrid thief mages, and most certainly not most faeries. At best they barely can break. Therefore most somewhat decent kingdoms will have fewer traditional attackers than most recent ages. Then you'll have like 2/3rd of each kingdom, if not more, just unable to hit the other person as you'll be filled with elves halfers and faeries who can't trad march each other.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Traditional attacking races are now so bad, they are potentially not even able to break or open on the hybrid thief mages, and most certainly not most faeries. At best they barely can break. Therefore most somewhat decent kingdoms will have fewer traditional attackers than most recent ages. Then you'll have like 2/3rd of each kingdom, if not more, just unable to hit the other person as you'll be filled with elves halfers and faeries who can't trad march each other.
    So, what I'm hearing is, it's the age of landlust for the crown?

  12. #102
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    I thought last age went pretty well. Why turn the whole game upside down? You purposely made T/Ms UB for next age. Why? You want to compound that by decreasing attacker damage by another 33%, unknowingly (it seems) making it so many people can't play or are very limited in what they can play. Less people will play attacker. That combined with +33% attack times means wars will last foreva with a high percentage ending in MP. T/Ms on both sides will neuter the attackers leaving everyone just sitting there looking at each other. I guess Halfer is the sleeper in that scenario. Part of a master plan just to dick with everyone. You knew T/Ms were OP because you made them that way on purpose, so you put in a T/M stopper.

    I have an idea. Put these changes on one server and another set of changes that don't change from 12 hour war attack time or UB T/Ms on another and see which one people sign up for. You already know the outcome of that, so again...why?
    Last edited by Wilmington; 20-04-2018 at 08:06.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by changeling View Post
    The big thing that got removed was the switch to 12 hour base after the first 24 hours.

    Generally, what happened was that the declarant would start the war, and get the benefit of 10% start, and more importantly would have full buildings, so the barracks (as some have pointed out) are actually all there, and can help bring attack times down to a reasonable range. That 10% covers the first wave basically from both sides, when both sides still have full rax. The -20% after 12 hours, or second wave, would almost take attack times to 12 hours, and usually under with some minimal rax.

    However after the first 24 hours is when attackers start not being able to rely on having the runes/guilds to get QF on, start being FBed out, or having no buildings, and that's when the 12 hour base attack times tick in. Most attackers still have some rax of course, but usually those will have been run down to a small enough percentage that they're good for making the attack times more like 11.5 hours or sth (i.e. a good amount of time to also account for the time it takes to get an attack out).

    So for any war that lasts longer than min time, it actually does make a major change, and is something that essentially pigeonholes players into specific picks.
    The so called base change you speak of is the removal of island distance penalties.
    In changes:
    War - Attack time reduction from War will be removed
    I believe this only refers to the actual % reduction.
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  14. #104
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    [double]
    Last edited by Yadda9To5; 20-04-2018 at 09:29.
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  15. #105
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    I like longer attack times, means attacking twice/day requires planning (and yes invalidates more than a few race/pers options). Lately the norm had become 3 unique/day, i always thought that excessive. oth my kingdom underestimates what 16h attack time means (and what the new nw and elite values mean) and assumes racks will help :/ Ugh, gonna be a loooong age. Seems to me the problem is really kingdoms misunderstanding the impact of changes, i'm not sure that's enough reason not to have them.
    Last edited by Yadda9To5; 20-04-2018 at 09:23.
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