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Thread: HatWalk ~ The Virtual Kingdom, Age 76 ~

  1. #16
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    The West: of Spearheads & Micro

    The West division is a classic TVK spearhead division in that it triangulates the highest military offense of the dryad, the highest cast percentage of the elf and highest sabotage success rate of the halfling. The downside of the spearhead is that it is brittle and subject to the classic counters of Assassinate Wizards and Expose Thieves. Still, the features are undeniable and we need them to break the toughest opponents the kingdom will face. The faery heretic is here because they have both Invisibility and Mages Fury to offer more reliable overall execution. The avian war hero serves in the ability to cast Pitfalls and take unambushable acres through War Spoils. The avian can run interference with biddable speed, great offensive augmentation and dragon immunity.

    The micro comes from the ability to approach tough opponents from 3 facets of high octane reliability. For instance we might probe an enemy faery to check defenses, the least of which will accumulate the lions share of attention. Instead of having the elf carry the majority of runes we can feed runes through aid to reduce losses via theft or Lightning Strikes. How is this micro?
    In conventional waves there are logistical "truths" that dictate the engagement of targeted enemies. The doctrine dictates a Mystic Vortex opening followed by Nightmare and Nightstrikes which is then followed by an attacking chain. So you have 25 players online with orders to follow based in the success of the previous action. I've seen waves stalled and squandered by wave captains not anticipated as simple a thing as dwarves spamming Mystic Aura or preemptive strikes against key mystics. All attacker actions pend on the accomplishments of ops and sabotage. In this way the elliptical division system only differs in the abbreviated actions and reactions. The advantage is in the speed of strategic and tactical implementation and adaptation. The attackers, mystics and rogues intermingle fluidly without lengthy stall time endangering armies at home.

    By micro we also mean the ability to shift focus on a dime, say if we experience pressure from enemy attackers, we can deploy a defensive posture and call in reinforcements from the Expeditionary South. We can also ask for help from the Southwestern division to shape opponents prelude to attacking. Remember, we are talking about 5 players who know each other and have operated with each other, now in real time unfettered by full wave drag and rigid strategy.

    The Southwestern division is without a doubt a vulturing division, but can participate in very utilitarian fashion. Oftentimes Nightmare is not seen for the versatility it can provide outside wave dynamics. In the protective interest of the West division we might anticipate an enemy wave to break the elf and halfling. What if Nightmare is cast on an opponent, army home, during wave prep? Sure, we all know about army in/out but waves do have a window of prep time that an observant player can exploit. It follows that Nightmare use then obligates us to chain the victim, but this is an option not the rule. If our interests are in preserving as many difficult to break provinces as possible we can use our abilities any way we choose and not be dragged to isolated tactics of tradition or expectation. In this case the intent of Nightmare is to reduce offense, and the byproduct of reducing thieves and dspecs can enhance the option to Nightstrike or attack to push the opponent out of optimum range.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 17-05-2018 at 22:18.
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  2. #17
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    A Little Explanation

    For those who haven't followed TVK(the virtual kingdom) the kingdom is visualized as an admixture of several fragmented kingdoms from all over the world. The division system was implemented to both retain individual kingdom cultures and mimic prime activity GMT, and thus shape the elliptical wave.

    This might look like a war kingdom on the kingdom page, but doesn't submit to traditional wave times or declaration. So the enemy might have all hands on deck whereas TVK would have divisions pulsing in and out during their prime activity. The Central division has in the past been characterized as the Western European division because, let's face it, their standard of living and work protocol tends to allow them more time to interact in game. I liken the Eastern division to the customary Asian timezone and no nonsense way of being. A little experience in taught Asian kingdoms is good for the soul, btw. The West is generally us whiny Americans, but with subdivisions we've opened things up to more esoteric player regions and lifestyles.

    Each kingdom fragment brings their philosophy and means of perpetuation. This includes their kingdom culture and freedom to recruit replacements. The motive here was to instill a level of healthy rivalry between divisions and allow them to learn skills from seeing each other function. A big benefit was to get players together that aren't breaking their necks and personal relationships to be part of a relatively competitive environment. Top kingdoms and charting war and honor kingdoms already have a solid working environment with cores of talented players. We're not better than them, but we should feel comfortable facing such opponents as each division can operate real time in their given wheelhouse.

    The kingdom also boasts a level of modulation. Say a certain kingdom is taking an age off; we can accommodate a number of players from said kingdom to enjoy the elliptical rigamarole. We can learn as much from them as they might from us.

    I encourage each province across the kingdom to daily Snatch News. Each province snatching news from different kingdoms. I might offer my council set up, but suffice to say, it includes an intel specialist who can navigate the myriad of SN information and offer a world report that'll tie the TVK world view together.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 17-05-2018 at 00:47.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
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  3. #18
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    A Little More

    The elliptical wave using divisions and subdivisions was designed to emphasize micro and eliminate operational logjams that can be unsettling in conventional waves. As anything, every strategy has strengths and weaknesses. The conventional chaining in the ellipse is less efficient because the attacker rollover takes place throughout the day. My attempt to offset this weakness is through a nw zone system I've experimented with extensively over the ages.

    This doesn't mean the kingdom is supposed to only adhere to zone. Think of it in terms of soccer/football, etc. We can blend zone and man-to-man tactics. For example, we could envision the Western division objective in establishing a 100k nw clearance zone(clearing a nw area around the division in 100k nw radius)and have the avian go man-to-man. Avians are the best attacker-hunter-killers; that is, of the attacker races, avian has the absolute advantage over the rest because raw speed allows predictable success and versatility in attack types. If you're experienced in running avian outside of the rigid wave target norm, you are aware of their battle prowess. We expect our avian players to be avian aficionados.

    Because the divisions truncate strategic initiative there is a minimum of wave stall. Compare a 3 bolt short action rifle to a 2 bolt long action. The 3 bolt will have a shorter bolt throw with a faster action, less prone to binding, with higher rigidity.

    The use of overlapping zones result in passive chaining, which can be enhanced by using the cross chaining tactic. Cross chaining maximizes chain doctrine because it divies out acres in a communistic fashion. By blending cross chaing and man-to-man we answer the question of tone-deaf targeting while being efficient in the field.

    Most divisions are set with an attacker/magic/sabotage triad to ape integrated blitz mechanics. Thus, each player in the division is in direct real time contact with each other to maximize micro. If you've participated in pro waves the system works wonderfully, but generally against other kingdoms that also use conventional waves. We should all be aware of the OOPS catastrophes we see when full kingdom waves are launched. The elliptical wave system minimizes OOPS stall which goes back to the 3 bolt short action rifle comparison illustrated above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
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  4. #19
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    The Ability Spread of TVK

    In a previous post about the Central division we touched on progressive duration ops. So what are we doing with mana otherwise? The Virtual Kingdom was designed to spread self and offensive spells across the kingdom as liberally as possible without compromising a few of the iconic "stacked" builds like avian tac(the fastest), elf mystic(highest cast success) and so forth. Thus, the whole of the kingdom is intended to use the breadth of defensive potential and the breadth of offensive capability. Many things are unpredictable, but forcing an enemy to use more to accomplish an action is part of an all encompassing effort to outlast the opponent.

    I mention this because I've seen t/ms get caught up in casting Nightmare till they've used all mana/runes but fail to cast their defensive array. Btw, Builders Boon is a very important spell.

    I can't help but credit Freeakstyle for demonstrating this way of being in a war we fought many ages ago. Play tight, play micro, act upon opportunity. Everyone makes mistakes so remember the boxing analogy: keep your hands up at all times. It's not the rule, it's the fundemental and foundation to building skill with killer instinct.

    Train thieves. It's one of the most common failures of naive kingdoms to allow their tpa to wilt and loose the ability to both protect themselves and gather vital intel. When we take intel lightly we put chained provinces at risk of loosing the ability to both break out and raze dangerous mid pack lurkers. With poor tpa our enemies can run circles around us through aid, sabotage and counter micro. In fact, IMHO, training thieves is: Thieves > Dragon. I've been in too many wars where dragon launching was the priority over every gruesome back breaking tactic the enemy used against us. All too often the highly valued gold ends up wasted on a dragon that the kingdom can't finish because of economic exhaustion.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 17-05-2018 at 23:12.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

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  5. #20
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    The Expeditionary South

    Here's a division that's not built for dynamics, but for sustain and logistical prowess. Funny things happen when dwarves get lost in the enemies target shuffle and we have finally met the dark elf undead. The human sage is that amorphous blob of goodies that find their way through a broad spectrum of seemingly ho-hum talents.

    The dwarf paladin with free build, Fools Gold, military sustain and a slew of defensive spells makes for a good mudder. Human sage is a classic "stack" build with economic strengths and great creeper potential throughout the age. The dark elf undead gets the sustain benefits through offensive survivability resulting in good conversion rates, and stands in the company of good economy with the dwarf and human.

    While t/ms play a big part in the second wind a kingdom might experience in war, the Expeditionary South is the military arm that is likely to be standing when the smoke clears. Our dark elf has Nightmare in its back pocket and this can add value when enemy armies are spent.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 18-05-2018 at 22:15.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

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  6. #21
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    The Elliptical Wave

    If you'll note, each division operates in the convention of 2 attacks/day, army in/out with opportunity being the strategic norm. In a cyclonic approach we have the 2 attacks per day overlapping between divisions. We begin our day with plague and Nightmare with Chastity casters through the day, with plague and Nightmare ending the day. So we're not just overlapping in time, but nw zones, man-to-man and vulturing opportunists. The majority of activity happens between conventional waves with the objective of folding enemies under a constant melange of various pressure mechanisms.

    The banter between divisions is a no-brainer and they may coordinate movements to mutual benefit. In the event divisions are decimated in war they can consolidate efforts within reach of their given prime GMT activity. And, like any kingdom, players can exert themselves to hyperactivity if the notion and time permits.

    Each of the 5 major division have a council member. Council positions include a lucid wave coordinator who can interpret elliptical progression, an intel interpreter, diplomatic representative, economy guru, and a global strategist. No one is expected to be an expert and delegating responsibilities is encouraged. We don't expect the intel interpreter to distill the Snatch News of 25 kingdoms, but to communicate the concerns and critical information that help navigate kingdom direction.

    Global Strategist might be construed as monarch, but again, the monarch might just be a cultural commissar. Essentially, the global strategist will digest the merits of the kingdom and levy that information against the ever progressing world around us. It's global because the factors include the diplomatic environment, kingdom power rankings, knowledge of kingdom build strengths & weaknesses, and ranking topography. Ranking topography is simply understanding what kingdoms are built for and what they play for: whoring builds, charting war and honor sets. These are important to understand because their ultimate goals dictate their daily conduct. Through Snatch News we can see who incidentally waves one kingdom whilst hostile with another. We write that down.

    It can rub some players wrong if they think the council responsibilities are daunting. My intent is to convey a polished version of what will likely be a blue-collar pragmatic approach by most.

    In the movie, Kelly's Heroes(1970), there's a scene where Donald Sutherland and a few of the tank crew are looking over aerial photos for a bridge to cross while stuffing their faces. Very Utopia like, if you think about it. Digest intel, digest food. Formalities are protocol, say for log posts and investigations. Formalities are for diplomacy.

    Which leads us to the diplomat. Diplomacy is an intelligence test, not a linguistic gymnastics match. The boxing advice follows here as well: protect yourself at all times.
    To task, I'm not a diplomat at all. There is no inherent value in the written word because it requires rules to offset intent. It is an illusion. I find it fascinating that an enemy fears the secession of hostilities so much that they can't respect my word and mean no harm. They want CF, and I'm simply stopping.

    Why is it important; not CFing all the time? One, because we're depending on the mechanic of CF to override intent. Like a paladin we should walk in purity. It's not about being a goodie two-shoes, it's a confidence to stride long in your world with a reputation for both retaliation and respecting other kingdoms space. So diplo isn't for me, but I had to digress.

    Diplomacy is a Wonderland to certain players and their focal interest results in some of the best "results to effort" ratio in game. Diplomacy as an art IS meta. I find these syrupy characters almost too much, and I love how they say they hate diplo. But really, they love diplomacy with fatal attraction. We see the top players in forum, and I know such personalities in real life: Twinkling eyes, big picture sales pitch, photo bombing both chancellors and bums. All I want the diplomat to know is they are free to run the yard, but we have an invisible fence. No doubt they'll test the fence; it's who they are. Captain Obvious says we recruit one of these guys no matter how much eye rolling may result from their antics.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 19-05-2018 at 12:59.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
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  7. #22
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    Why?

    Many of the efforts in TVK were designed to address problems I've encountered in game.

    1. Ghetto.

    When we ghetto we sometimes find ourselves at odds with powerful, well organized kingdoms that can toy with us at their whim. You might have a couple of serious players, but you'll note many are forced to play attackers because the apathetic, low activity players intuitively jump on t/m roles. Our differences cause unnecessary friction in that concepts like TVK are barely realized. Compounding this are trite ideals of unitizing concepts under one rule by players who haven't scratched a top kingdom: "it's my way or the highway and all I know is chaining in war and dispatching CFs without diplomatic salutations". It's not that I think these players are evil or stupid, but that they've not opened their eyes to enlighten their horizon.

    We can't offer these types total control, but we can provide them with a division to either prove their point or humbly accept they could round out their game. The positive side is these players and their core tend to carry activity above the norm. Many don't excercise their Fight IQ and you'll see them oblivious to enemy t/ms controlling the field. Many see land acquisition as victory and don't wrap their minds around empty nw. Sense of timing, cooperation and striking a balance between logistical leverage and unpredictability are almost nonexistent in many ghettos.

    The Analogy ~ Star Trek TOS episode: The Changeling

    KIRK: Spock. Spock?*
    SPOCK: Fascinating, Captain. The knowledge. The depth.*
    KIRK: What does it mean, we are Nomad?*
    SPOCK: It was, it was damaged in deep space. Undoubtedly, the meteor collision. Its memory banks were destroyed, or most of them. It wandered without purpose, and then it met the other. The other was an alien probe of great power. Somehow they merged, repaired each other, became one.

    So instead of these fringe ghettos floating as crippled kingdoms from the onset, we conceive of a learning environment equipped with built in competition and example by result.

    2. Race & Personality Familiarization.

    We could run around with 23 orc tacs and 2 faeries and bang heads with top kingdoms just because. We could run a narrow field war kingdom, being outraged with any interference, abiding the ideals of hostile screw jobs and mechanical declare dependence. Here, it's not about kingdom specialization it's about teamwork and sparking the epiphany of many avenues. TVK has weaknesses just as most every other kingdom, but one is not the toolbox. We're here to learn the use of many tools, techniques, timing and execution. When you do you might see what I have: that you find yourself in the last 5 weeks of the age running a newly built elf cleric and you're fighting top 10 kingdoms comfortably.

    In this way TVK isn't just a learning template, because the concept of "correct kingdom building" is debatable based in my experience using a science challenged t/m race with an attacker personality and crashing top 10 builds with a full age of province sculpting based in 3 wars...not 1, not hostile, but 3 real wars. I'm not smarter, it's that the message is false concerning what constitutes formidability. My experiences have been in taking race and personalities that no one is using(I mean zero) and seeing it thrive. Yes, I've run orc mystic. Curiosity fuels courage and the price can be high. It takes one bad war to ruin an age and one good war to secure a successful age. Relax when you face the giants and watch what they do. They have players superior to my ability and I'd much rather engage them then hide from them. If you can apply enough pressure to a brilliant kingdom they will expose you to brilliant strategy. Make it easy for them and they will play possum and sometimes lull you into a false sense of security. You'll know when you strike a nerve because the reaction will be violent. You may have to experience that violence to maneuver yourself to enlightenment.

    3. Elliptical Waving

    Looks exactly like a ghetto wave and fundamentally is a ghetto concept. We should look at the world, the real world, to adjust our thinking. Look at the wars of the USA against certain countries with no navy, no air force and barely any ground mechanization. TVK is built from an understanding that sustained culture is the backbone of perseverance. The organized kingdoms will depoly tactics similar to special forces and make inroads. Reply in kind, even if in raggedy fashion. Through practice you close the skills gap.

    Allow me to convey one more concept.

    The boss(1) is perceptively alone, but actually has a sniper escort(2) on the roof of the building beneath where he wallks.
    And the sniper is being escorted by another(3) who watches from a window along the boulevard. A passer by on the ground across the street is also one of our kingdom mates(4). And another(5) on the roof of the opposite building is looking for who is looking at us.

    We can appear organizationally inept and accomplish many things if we all do our work. It is chess. It is SWAT doctrine.

    What the elliptical wave does best is allow players from different time zones to play in their GMT wheelhouse. Yes, it would be of tremendous value if everyone could be hyperactive, but that's not realistic. The kingdom cores these divisions would be built from would probably be higher in activity by nature. The thing is that most ghettos either go completely disorganized or their expectations are too high from this perspective. In other words the ghetto, in an attempt to be formidable, puts a hard date on waving that simply can't be met. Yin & Yang here guys. The edge of chaos and order is the elliptical approach.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 20-05-2018 at 15:05.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

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  8. #23
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    Personal Techniques for Amnesia & Nightmare

    *"I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate."*~ Rutger Hauer

    The first time I saw Nightmare used personally and effectively was by a quiet loner in the kingdom of Aggression is the Liquor. The fellow was said to be a crabby old guy that only communicated when he was complaining. That said he was masterful at self sustainence and I never recalled him ever requesting aid. The guy was never chained. We were a barbaric kingdom so his methods were only good in my eyes. He played an elf.

    My first use of Nightmare was as the apex caster in a full kingdom Nightmare chain wave strategy. My responsibilities were to cast Mystic Vortex on the intended chain targets and follow with Nightmare till the troop yield was below 100/cast. We had a number of faery casters who also spammed Nightmare. So to understand the strength of traditional wave dynamics is that you have several casters attempting to reach the less than 100/cast goal simultaneously, and thus faster. This speed is integral to the total wave because most attackers will be going in order of nw/land and offense. The first and second wave went over well. The third wave was when school of thought came back to bite us.

    The third wave we targeted a dwarf, and while I could erase his initial defensive spells with Mystic Vortex the dwarf did what I had done when avian had the Mystic Aura spell: he spammed MA and blocked a crap load of Nightmare casts. He also had an inherently higher wpa as most dwarves do and the faeries were failing. My immediate reaction then was to crack the dwarf with Lightning Stikes and Explosions but the wave stall had already taken place. Granted, we had the ability to Night Strike and steal runes as well, but the wave captain wasn't adapting as quickly as necessary. We had a bunch of players complaining about the wave taking too long and attackers were sitting home with armies. Suffice to say, "hello micro".

    Individual use of Amnesia and Nightmare are similar in certain ways. Since my personal tactics generally use nw zones my focus is on creating space or closing space between me and enemies within the nw zone. You can think about science yield in the same fashion. The idea is to create a serviceable breadth of deficit and progressively stretch the gap. The totality of actions include attacks and sabotage.

    Sometimes opening with thieves is the wiser choice despite certain builds not having a high degree of strength, but this is about creating cracks to flood the target from all offensive aspects(attacking, casting, sabotage). Fundamentally, I'd cast Nightmare or Amnesia to 50% mana, drop a few Tornados, Greed, Lightning Strikes and Explosions. Then I would proceed to drop one cast/tick on the enemy to maintain the gap till I had to go to bed etc. I like to bottom out at 30% mana because you never know when you'll need it.

    Amnesia was especially effective vs halfling in war and my intent was to slow down the halfer success rate in Assassinating Wizards. You can see why I wanted a dark elf sage, but couldn't fit it in to TVK this age. I'm all for Exposing Thieves, but I've notice any failure to maintain the tactic results in the halfer going full force at your sensitive Mystics. You can obviously mix these two spells for admirable effect. Amnesia is effective outside of war when being harassed by stronger kingdoms. Nobody likes having their science stalled.

    In the ghetto you do best when you can cover ground in more than one department. In my case I was running an undead sage which to my experience was one of the most effective out of war builds because of the meter efficiency. Sages have science defenses, so I could counter abduct below the meter. When the enemy wanted to counter-counter the science yield was lower and plague was always a risk. Compounding this was once we went unfriendly the Amnesia spell is accessible and thus unleashed a barrage of science stunting effects that made for miserable engagement on the enemies part. It's why I'm always preaching that ghettos are best served building top feeder kingdom strats over war strats.

    If you'll note, I've combined these strengths in certain divisions or near GMT divisions so the rain never stops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
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  9. #24
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    Things We Know

    Organized waves can be derailed which leads to plan B: Get'em, or that's what we called it in D&D. In Utopia I've got to think we can be more in depth, and I'm sure great kingdoms already are. Let's leave the wave control to the wave captain and have a second plan among the provinces. This eliminates further time loss and wave disarray.

    Emergency Warp Maneuvers

    1. The easiest order to bark out is "max gains" which generally will save a wave and make your enemy regret stuffing your chain. The problem is in the feeding frenzy there will be overlap with some squandering of troops.

    2. Next might be each player has a designated target, prelude to the chain wave, that can be attacked in the event of a wave failure. This includes t/ms having targets as well.

    3. Just remember, you can mix things up like a football defense. You can run zones, run man-to-man, you can spearhead the enemy t/ms. You can go province deep on the strat, having a cross-chain target and a zone clearance initiative...if the chain wave gets stalled.

    I'm not trying to talk happy chain waving kingdoms out of their strats as much as help kingdoms new to the club.

    Things We Should Know

    1. My biggest gripe with chain waving is the massive flank you offer your opponent and that less active kingdoms seem naive and self destructive when they exchange waves with a more active kingdom.

    Players, particularly those giving orders, have an obligation to understand the elements of strategy. Rock, paper, scissors. Chain waves classic counter is max gains. There are nuances. If you do the same thing every war you won't learn how to defeat opponents that win quality wars. It's not my intention to scold or berate, it's to say to yourself "it's time to delegate". Even without any stronger strategic minds it's imperative to convey a sense of belonging and the freedom of provinces to self sustain. You see, strategy might just be on a delay setting. You might need to let the war bloom before you can see the theater of war. Just remember, you need functional forces and economy. Don't sacrifice the good stuff by starving yourselves with dragon funding.

    2. You should eat enemy t/ms faster than they eat yours. This is tough, but what it really means is knowing when to WD and what needs attention in the kingdom strat. If we're whoring disregard this advice and WD when acre yields spike, unless those are t/m acres; then you eat their t/ms like grapes.

    3. You need to create strategies for keeping enemy chained provinces down. I've run zone for ages and it's a lot easier to target the enemy sticking his head out than ignoring enemies till they become scary again. Once you clear a given nw zone your responsibility is to maintain the DMZ.

    The quiet complexity of Utopia appears now and that is the maintenance of quality nwpa. Once I've established a nw zone my gains are regulated by the onslaught of the enemies on the nw frontier. So I'm not outstripping my tpa or wpa and I'm establishing a rendezvous point for my fellow provinces to gather toward. As provinces flow in we strengthen our grip in the nw zone and can better aid provinces in breakout attempts.

    Now I've met criticism for centering zones until after wars. I get this "you're an attacker, you're supposed to be chained" and it makes me sigh. How can you be a badass constantly crying for aid and intel as you drown in t/m abductions? My point was simple. By economic sustain I was able to render aid and intel to our chained and it didn't come out of our t/ms pockets. Thus, they could flourish in their endeavors with full resources. Simultaneously my zone was established to keep enemy attackers from getting in max range of our t/ms to solidify our top control. Now I can't be a one man gang. If the lesson in Rock'n Roll isn't sinking in then let the elevator music play.

    4. I invite those who wonder about how the good kingdoms play and my advice is to touch the nw tab on the kingdom pages and see for yourselves. They might not use the rhetoric I use or even focus on nw zones, but you'll see the gaping maw on kingdoms in big trouble. Many wars come down to the nw clamp of one kingdom vs the bulge or major salient of the opposition. Either the clamp closes or the top jaw is broken.

    5. Maybe you do this to, but it should come as no surprise, to launch waves ASAP I've heard that many(all?) top players have several windows open with precalculated troops/tap. This might have the off effect of OOPS bugs freezing up your counter. Actually, I became interested in top kingdom speed many years ago. It's things like seeing them in action vs the likes of me that got me looking into this. Purely a style, as I'm still a methodical player and adapt along the way. It's important to know that once a top kingdom calls all players to arms that you will possibly see 25 activity stars in short order. They will move quickly if they want to. That's just one reason they're top material.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 20-05-2018 at 22:48.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  10. #25
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    Planning Ahead

    True Story:
    One day I was at my friend Bobs house while getting ready to go to work. His wife and toddler were in the kitchen, when the toddler demanded food.

    Wife to toddler: "Say the magic word."

    Toddler: "Abracadabra."

    Wife: "The other magic word!"

    Toddler: "Hocus-pocus."

    Wife: "BOB?!?!!!"

    Bob is also one of the guys who play RPGs in our group. When Bob plays games it's important to remind oneself of days like this.

    When we plan ahead we should respect that our adversaries may also plan ahead. This is a point of encouragement. For if our opponents have planned ahead then we are facing a worthy foe.

    We start before beginning of age, insofar as kingdom set. This is your reality check. We all know if you want something done right you do it yourself. Your province should be your kingdoms Mini-Me. It should be a reflection of the whole.

    It's nice to have role-players that do their job, but if the kingdom ails from activity, unruliness, accident prone players or naivety then we really should be pragmatic. Understanding what will happen if the kingdom is waved, what powers kick in at unfriendly, how the kingdom reacts to adversity will help in planning.

    Taking the initiative against bottom feeding kingdoms requires a knowledge of triggers and common weaknesses. Inherent resource retention is important, balanced with far reaching capability. Flat builds, like dark elf heretic have their place, but not in high penetration that serves notice to tough opponents. When I say flat I mean builds that are highly effective against negligible defenses but not vs high resistance. So you don't want a kingdom full of flat builds that look cool on paper, but can't break an elf mystic to save their lives. Let's say you want a third of the kingdom flat builds, a third high penetrators and a third with sterling economy.

    The reasoning, and I'm referring kingdoms that need pragmatism, is your high penetrators can dig deep into tough kingdoms but usually are brittle and lack sustain. The hope is for your high penetrating group to get enemies in reach of the flat builds, and your economy provinces to hold things together.

    We can assume a certain number of organized kingdom have a round robin approach to farming ghettos. You'll note, if they milk the meter when you retaliate, be assured another kingdom and another will take turns abducting. The secret here is to retaliate all, but remain poking the original farmer...even when they seemingly back off. You shouldn't offer any CFs during this period or send messages. Learn how to use bouncing to harass enemies to conserve meter. Be prepared for massive theft of runes by distribution of resources. Assure players actively keep trade balances healthy.

    Each category of kingdom type(penetrator, flat, economy) should be occupied by your good core. Thus, if you only have 3 players including yourself to rely upon, then you each represent a segment of kingdom doctrine. Try not to screw yourself with the meter when facing round robin assaults. Your meter efficient rituals are Havoc and Onslaught. You want high yield. What you don't want is army in/out to be your downfall to meter consumption. Players tend to screw the meter or hit out of the prevailing conflicts inviting retal from even more kingdoms.

    Use your eyes when retaliating. One of my favorite tactics against pumped attackers that abduct is to cast economy killers and then max anon trad march. You'll see them leaking oil fairly quickly. If you can cast Amnesia prelude to the march, even better. War Spoils is good stuff here as well., but plan ahead to fortify the acres. Another thing is to press the nw button on their kingdom page. I'm nice and try not to wreck farming kingdom chain alignments, but I can. So, you see where the meat of the enemies chain alignment is and bump them down. The reason is because most of these kingdoms are "planning a war" and are hitting you to ramp up resources.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 21-05-2018 at 23:03.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

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  11. #26
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    From a Position of Strength

    Now you can build a kingdom any way you like and focus on particular strengths. The reason I'm spending time talking on retal is because my experiences range from top 10 land kingdoms to micro kingdoms with 3 provinces to being the 1 and only province in a kingdom shell.

    Unlike many ghettos who capitulate to pressure from big, organized kingdoms, my direction has been to dig in and fight. The fact is, when your kingdom is so small that every kingdom in the game is bigger you have no choice. In other words, I've done the homework and research to see that fighting is preferrable to mercy.

    Compounding my situation, I've run a pure retal doctrine. Let's see what that means:
    - My province doesn't attack unless provoked.
    - My province often takes the first hit with my army home equalling heavy losses.
    - My province doesn't steal or cast unprovoked.
    - My retaliation is based in who's the most formidable target.
    - My prerogative is to spare apparently new players of retal.

    I'm telling you this to dispel the myth that your kingdom will be crushed with impunity. It can be, but fighting back makes the price high and grueling for kingdoms looking for easy targets. I've followed this challenge doctrine since age 63 and began forming this doctrine in 61.
    Granting CF is more complex, because it depends. But here's some guidelines I've used:

    - Never seek CFs from anyone.
    - Never offer CFs to invaders unless they ask and are known reputable players.
    - Freely accept CFs from anyone.

    These are concerning a very small or single province kingdom like I've participated. You'll note I've recommended getting yourself the best diplomat you can recruit or dedicate an enthusiastic player to the task. You can see my style of "diplomacy" is based in bloody nose respect. This is my nature and I understand many others aren't built this way. To define my way of thinking it is that I play for challenge, not resources.

    I'm an aging fellow and know myself. So to get to know yourself better in Utopia you ask how much you value challenges in the game and resources in the game. Since I'm willing to sacrifice resources for challenges I'm unsuitable for most types of top play, be it whoring or warring. Top kingdoms value both, because the title is the ultimate statement in regards to challenges met and acquisition of resources.

    When I'm building provinces I build them for the kingdom and often wait to see what everyone else built. If we lack tacticians I'll build one because intel is gold. I'm telling you this because I don't build to top feed, but I retaliate bottom feeders with conviction. Since many of you won't be as deeply motivated by challenges as I am, I recommend building your kingdom to top feed. It's like liquid courage: you're more likely to retal if you gain from retal.

    Why don't I recommend building for war? Because good war kingdoms are more than kingdom pages. They often have a depth of CFs to secure their position. Because they don't have to look over their shoulder they can wave aggressively. Those CFs are with kingdoms that may also see you as a soft target, particularly if you're built for war stance and not the plethora of out of war experiences. By building a top feeder you always have the tools to bring frowns to the faces of aggressors.

    Concerning diplo, I'm amused because I've often been greeted by two answers:

    - Learn how to diplo.
    - Get your facts straight.

    Probably some gif related tripe, I'm not intimidated by anything in game. There's no sense in trying to reason with people that don't want to listen. So you prepare to make them listen. Most kingdom conflicts I see as toying around. I'm not serious or really trying to hurt anyone. Plus, I'm only retaliating so I'm not the one who started anything. Ive had communications with monarchs that seem annoyed, and my answer is:

    "I thought we were just playing till you find a war. We don't need a CF, I'll stop retaliating."

    It's that simple. My word is written in stone. I've no vendetta vs big badasses; we were just volleying armies to pass the time and stay limber. Cause I will avoid hitting critical provinces as long as they aren't hitting our critical provinces. Leave my t/ms alone and I'll never touch yours.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 22-05-2018 at 17:19.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  12. #27
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    An Offensive Playlist


    HatWalk ~ The Virtual Kingdom, Age 76 ~

    *Expeditionary North:

    Dark Elf ~ paladin: Montera*: Fools Gold, Magic Ward, Nightmare
    Halfling ~ sage: Capuchon*: Amnesia
    Orc ~ undead: Fez: Plague

    *East:

    Bocan ~ rogue: Chullo*: Assassinate Wizards, Gluttony, Nightmare
    Dark Elf ~ mystic: Turban*: Chastity, Meteor Showers, Nightmare
    Dwarf ~ warrior: Homburg*: Hold My Beer
    Halfling ~ heretic: Vueltiao*: Blizzard, Arson
    Orc ~ tactician: Sombrero: Sudden Impact

    *Northeastern:

    Dryad ~ undead: Gat: Plague Vulture
    Elf ~ sage: Chengziguan*: Amnesia, Chastity Vulture

    *Central:

    Avian ~ tactician: Glengarry*: Ludicrous Speed
    Bocan ~ heretic: Beret*: Blizzard, Nightmare, Arson
    Faery ~ mystic: Salakot*: Chastity, Fools Gold, Meteor Showers
    Faery ~ rogue: Ushanka: Fools Gold, Gluttony, Assassinate Wizards
    Human ~ warrior: Balmoral Bonnet*: What Are You Looking At? ( your choice of Barry from Beerfest or Ron from Mad TV )

    *Southwestern:

    Bocan ~ war hero: Porkpie: Pitfalls, Nightmare Vulture
    Elf ~ paladin: Rastacap: Chastity, Fools Gold, Magic Ward Vulture

    *West:

    Avian ~ war hero: Stetson: Pitfalls
    Dryad ~ tactician: Pith Helmet: Matilda
    Elf ~ mystic: Top Hat: Chastity, Meteor Showers
    Faery ~ heretic: Tantour: Blizzard, Fools Gold, Arson
    Halfling ~ rogue: Bowler: Assassinate Wizards, Gluttony

    *Expeditionary South:

    Dark Elf ~ undead: Bicorne*: Nightmare, Plague
    Dwarf ~ paladin: Shako*: Fools Gold, Magic Ward
    Human ~ sage: Tricorne: Amnesia

    In D&D the classic magic-user was categorically known as a controller. Their powers weren't designed for instant kills, but debilitating effects that weighed on opponents in various ways. In Utopia I'm applying that doctrine which translates into economic control.

    There's no expectation that mana, runes or stealth will be plentiful so we look at what's effective with abbreviated resources. Assassinating Wizards can include enemy attackers to open them up to casting by non-t/ms. Amnesia has great initial effect, but there's a side benefit of limiting the effectiveness of moving scientists. Arson isn't seen as a strong type of sabotage unless aimed at provinces for general gains, which is what we're looking for. Nightmare offers the ability to use generals for alternatives to trad march in that an attacker can spare a general to massacre or raze. We're looking for a breakable pool of enemy provinces for next stage initiatives and bypass options.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 23-05-2018 at 22:27.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  13. #28
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    Building the Arsenal ~ Multi-Age Vision

    This kingdom was not intended to operate as an even-Steven war kingdom in that even wars aren't the aim. When you breach the top 20 you will encounter kingdom after kingdom that've covered their CF asses and you will feel like the outsider...unless you commit to excellence as it were.

    The diplomacy environment of the top 20 yields riches in pump; a luxury this kingdom won't have initially. So the secret is to pay your dues. Take wars of high powered, well organized kingdoms and watch what they do. Most are logistically very sound, active and micro with experienced polish.

    This brings us back to the little things like retaliating abductions with trad march, top feeder strats and fighting rather than offering CFs. Acres are oxygen, while science is cardio. Yes, we retal with abduction but not to stay in some war tier miasma vs taking acres. The acres will bring superior competition and this is what we want.

    The more you establish yourself as a reliable entity the more familiar the enemy is with your reputation. We want to be mature about the journey. There are no shortcuts, but there are rewards. This isn't to say there aren't fantastic war kingdoms in the mid and lower tier, it's that their focus is in being tight, chart topping war kingdoms and acres mean very little to them. They've earned respect over the ages and there's almost a family feel in who they war and how they conduct business. The reason we might stack acres is to learn the game in totality. The top land holding war kingdoms have diplomatic relationships that include top whoring kingdoms. If recent history is an indicator, the skills gap is closing between war and whoring kingdoms.

    By taking acre caps out of the equation we see kingdoms using all their faculties to cement themselves as a constant. If you're familiar with the kingdom Green, they weren't a very diplomatically savvy kingdom, but essentially warred anyone that wanted a fight. They may or may not still be around, but serve as a template of the grounding necessary to be in the field of kingdoms that earned a reputation for bringing it against the best.

    Kingdoms will want to war for their reasons, not just a hodgepodge of wars with no progressive intent. Again, we can always join the war tier and lobby nw/acre size to stack wars. Personally I find this tedious and we aren't learning the lessons of ascension. Diplomacy takes on new meaning and serious old school players will test our resolve.

    My intent is to position the kingdom to be in the pump tier and learn these valuable skills. I've aped some top kingdom pumping in the war tier, but you can't excercise the entirety of the ideal. When you face top pumped kingdoms you see the game at full throttle. It'll seem unrealistic and always begs the question "how good would you be if you weren't pumped?" This was demonstrated when Pyromaniacs moved to the whoring tier, and at their Zenith, Pyro won the land crown. This kingdom, this age, isn't designed for whoring. It is however part of the learning process to see great kingdoms in action unfettered by the constant slog in the everyday function of non-top kingdoms. Pyro had a huge learning curve and compromises were made, but they saw the incredible fighting prowess of top tier kingdoms and it showed in how they organized and conducted themselves diplomatically. Suffice to say, in part it is watching how sausage is made.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 23-05-2018 at 23:32.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  14. #29
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    How I Play

    Besides the challenge idioms I've followed, illustrated in post #26, there are certain things I do that are related to my breadth of experience.

    1. Playing Fat. Oftentimes I'm running some kind of attacker or hybrid. When I'm playing t/m races I'm tighter in build than my version of attacker races. I'm a build slob and ape characteristics from different tiers with little attention payed to build percentage vs competition. My tendencies are to run fairly high wpa and decent tpa. Neither my offense or defense are particularly high for my size, but I stay in range of farming kingdoms by instinct.

    It's not that I target tough opponents as much as I retal tough opponents. The byproduct of retaliation is the opponent tends to counter attack, reasoning my capitulation. This doesn't happen and thus I'm acclimated to having 2 to 6 enemy provinces from different kingdoms attacking me daily. Again, I build by instinct forged through 40 years of gaming. being fat is part design, part induced by accumulated flack. My base war build is flipping banks, guilds down to 15% and peripheral defense buildings to Watch Towers, more Guard Stations and a few more Hospitals. While I run a horrible strat based loosely on top kingdom homes pump, my endeavor is to have a population sink more than a max template.

    2. Durability. While I'm happy running anything I'm in my wheelhouse with builds like the old undead race, cleric personality and current paladin. When it's possible to stack durability I'll tend toward those builds. I'm a fan of plague immunity. My preference for these builds is based in my love of various dwarf builds in D&D, though the Utopian dwarf only mimics those characteristics in certain ways.

    3. Retal Targeting. Since I don't random, I'm exclusively retal targeting. Time to time I'll encounter catiwompus targets who hit out of range to either discourage hitting their kingdoms bigger provinces, make countering a poor use of resources, or t/ms counting on their defense to discourage retal. Some are incidental, but my assumption is they are "Random Aces". Random Aces are common in the top tier but lurk in many corners of the game. Lets assume a good Ace; a player who has thought through the retal scenario. My D&D years were spent doing the progressions. While not as refined as chess, I'm use to cold starts vs surprise attacks from compromising positions.

    What I first do is check my max zone and evaluate the enemy kingdom page. My progressions are based in meter consumption, target sensitivity and likelihood of counter measures. What I'm doing is navigating toward the original perpetrator by using their kingdom mates to scuplt my eventual max retal. To bait interest I'll use my generally superior peripheral capabilities to demonstrate mock frustration with the original perpetrator, and random a formidable kingdom mate.

    To understand this way of thinking, the enemies way of thinking; they want to bait my kingdom into war with a chain alignment that is well suited against my kingdom. So it's best to leave the complex art of kicking ass to those who covet the meter. Just be wary that Random Aces can be multis or honestly working with partners in other kingdoms. They do this to conserve meter and stretch your resolve, which I've got tons. An example last age was a small suicide orc who attacked by abduction followed closely by a dwarf by trad who never took my intel. The dwarf was my target because I knew he'd knock me into the original Aces range and thus max. It took me throwing the kitchen sink to break the dwarf, and this goes back to playing fat.

    4. Tactical Zone. In messing around with tactical zones it proved to be a viable alternative to chaining, particularly if you're in lower activity kingdoms like myself most of the time. But the other reason I'm partial to zone tactics is that I enjoy relative isolation against the most formidable adversaries I can reach in war. Yeah, I do the orders, but with a little freedom I'm taken by scenes like that in Highlander vs the Kurgan. With war all around us and violence in all directions, my true love awaits in the duel of heavy attackers. Some guys are too busy doing strategy to enjoy a go in the trenches, but I'm quite taken by a willing opponent. While many will think this is tactically unsound it's more that I'm not a leaders soldier, I'm mercenary. We will get your victory, I just need a moment eye to eye with the best of our enemies kingdom. You know the drill: create zone and feed enemies through, from the nw peak to the nw valley. It's when you struggle to grab a good one, and resistance is firm. Ah. So we get to match blades center zone and unleash our best stuff.

    There have been times where I've left myself open to a max gain affront in the zone I've cleared just to tip my hat to the singular foe. It's a curtesy I've rendered to magnify the grace of our embrace. Salutations.

    5. Why Am I Telling You This? I'm not without an ego in battle, but what I'm really conveying is that being discouraged by dangerous enemies isn't necessarily the path to enjoyment. This is a game we all take a little too seriously. I'm not invincible, or considered a build guru by anyones measure. In fact my builds are universally criticized. This should more deeply emphasize that risk is fun. Not knowing and doing it anyway. We all get the same tools and I've been beaten down. Players feel good about that and maybe say I should've been better. That's ok, because I'm not one that hides behind myth. Mystery is the best part of gaming, not the logistical execution.

    6. Downgrading To Increase Challenge. Some of my best friends in the game know that I will leave a perfectly successful kingdom because I'm an adventurer. Now I'm not into leaving kingdoms who haven't drafted to replace me and my tradition of purchasing invites is intact. This isn't just kingdoms, I'll abandon successful builds. Generally, I'm not trying to achieve chart flavored goals.

    One example was a human cleric I abandoned and destroyed. I started a new province in the same kingdom. Once I figured out the balance I knew I could do whatever I wanted. I'm not sure how many players experience that feeling of dominion. Like, from here on out it's child's play. Cleric was my conduit for some of my favorite builds. The elf cleric was a mighty province, and I was partial to the undead cleric. The elf cleric was the one mentioned that was built with 5 weeks left in the age. I started an age with the human cleric and abandoned it for a orc mystic from scratch. The undead sage was also a Titan of capability. These were the builds I could take up the ladder and really make fissures in the process. Once I'm happy I'll let it go, because I'm not a party crasher.

    7. The Game Raw. If you're privy to certain aspects of music, sound engineering etc. there's certain measures taken to control stuff like 60 cycle hum and drum ringing. While these are universal, it's based on a segment of the population who might be bothered by these things; like a common OCD, as it were. These things don't bother me and I like to think the full expression of art is unfettered by common OCD.

    Utopia can be played with bots and com links, and it can be played without. Most feel naked without the tools and this in itself has made kingdom hopping a less agreeable play style. My retirement isn't based in the inability to change, it's that when I look around I see the base is incapable of understanding the price of tool dependence. This doesn't mean I see players as babies; no, there are plenty of mature and patient players.

    This is about the prevailing majority resigning a level of work that inadvertently hinders creative thought. The more logistics are looked to as the bottom line, the less effort is spent to overcome them. As human beings we operate in a world of natural selection and a universe of physical law, but we are the dice roll. We are the ones who sharpened sticks to bring the king of the jungle to his knees. A lion is everything physically a human is not. Lest we forget and create gods of logic to dictate our way of thinking.

    Too many in Utopia have resigned themselves to tools as progress, yet prescribe to the notion of the "bigger fish" environment as law. It is law to nature. It is not law to those who strive to change through creativity. It's not the tools fault, it's that humanity is an enlightened animal. Given free sex, food and shelter there wouldn't be a need to use our intellect creatively. Most will be lulled by the convenience into robots of the robot. Only a few will use the tools to create. We have to ask ourselves these questions.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 27-05-2018 at 13:50.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  15. #30
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    Learning by Proxy

    My suggestion that a kingdom could catalog Snatch News from 25 kingdoms/day and use it toward a depth of knowledge was from an experience in age 63. This was the age I went solo in a kingdom shell for a while and later was joined by makeo.

    There was a random land grab from BeastBlood I retaliated and used War Spoils. Before I was able to implement the buildings on the new land, it suddenly disappeared. Emeriti acted with astonishing speed to my exchange with BeastBlood and trad marched the acres.

    Many of you may know that not only do/did BeastBlood and Emeriti compete in whoring, but were essentially 2 of the best in the race for the crown. These kingdoms at the top have CFs with each other which are essential to whoring and pump mechanics. It's a pragmatic approach to reach the ideals of a top tier vacuum.

    Thus, to be in top kingdom proximity is to see some interesting functions in Utopia. Since BeastBlood and Emeriti had a CF they couldn't hit each other but could soft war each other via third party: me, as a microcosm. And this is only one aspect. There are "taxes" negotiated with other kingdoms. Top kingdoms are aware of how deep their core needs to be for exposure to whorable acres and practice mechanics to reap gains.

    I'm not sure how recent changes have effected the whoring tier, but there has been some shuffling up there. If it matters, I also retaliated Emeriti. This is actually the responsible way to maintain balance at the top. I retaliated all whoring and top warring kingdoms and was granted CFs. This isn't a brag, it's to understand that when you present yourself as a chaotic element in the whoring field the CF environment seeks to achieve stability, almost autonomically.

    If razing my province was logical they could've done that. Top kingdom logic dictates a violent target requires a more suitable digestion system. This is where taxes, deals and intimidation play. It's easier to have a warring kingdom take my acres, and through various deals, taxes or intimidation get those acres without a fight.

    Top kingdoms are also based in low drag principles, so guys like me aren't worth their time. Now, I'm against interfering with kingdoms competing for crowns if I'm not competing. My challenge idioms dictate my disposition: I only retaliate. I duck no one. If I CF top kingdoms I'm depriving myself of great challenges, but my intentions aren't to derail them in any way. - This is a demonstration of my feelings on diplomacy and gamesmanship.

    The first step is exploring hints. The aspects to learning in Utopia are similar to tracking. Sometimes all you have is a hint. Maybe a broken thistle or cracked leaf is all you have to determine direction. Don't ignore it and begin using intuition.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 28-05-2018 at 00:44.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

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