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Thread: Human Sage Strategy Discussion

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madchess View Post
    I'd like to state that +30% effectivity to science is nothing after reaching the cap and breaking it, and science holds nw, it will allow for max science early, but it will only equate to the same thing as what happens for mystic on wpa, you reach the target then what? no mystic even though they have the production would go for 15 raw wpa since they would have insufficient room for thieves, military and peasants then. Any non mystic might pump wizzards slower, but they will have the capacity to reach more or less the same wpa in the end, and if there was no AW or massacre, and wpa was not dependent on size the mystic.

    This is what happens to Sage, you reach the cap and then when others hit the cap your sage is not going to do you any good say for a minimal boost, and you will end up on way to high nw if going over the cap which will happen unless you constantly reset all scientists, this gives you a window of what 2-3 weeks of superior boost to science, others will reach max science too, mystics will go for magic science first, rogues for thievery science and so on, so even though you can get it all faster your wpa boost will still not beat mages, your tpa boost will not beat thieves, and your military boost will not beat attackers.

    One thing to remember, especially as sage if you get chained do not hesitate for a second but reset all your scientists so that the chain will be inefficient from there on, keep your professors and you will most likely be chained so low on land that you will get PK'ed.

    But the +30% goes beyond the soft cap.. In fact you dont really lose any effectiveness on scientists until around 45 per cat. then its curve not a deadend. Add to the fact that going double novice and swapping every few days takes care of the NW problem. Human Sage can be played very well... but most wont.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    Yes. Although I am going to try to double check with someone in case my entire understanding here is wrong
    3 people just agreed on discord (I also see tiggis above - although i didn't follow the 45 per cat point there).

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    3 people just agreed on discord (I also see tiggis above - although i didn't follow the 45 per cat point there).
    You can add scientists after the soft cap of 30 and the first few give almost full benefit at professor, and they continue to give some benefit the more you add albeit less the higher you go. So if you put 50 professors in housing, you will have more housing science than someone with prof at the softcap.
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  4. #19
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    Just like the nightmare spell if done correctly amnesia can and will hurt. Thing is i don't think i ever seen another kingdom use a core of sage attackers, around 6-7 of them to be exact, even then it was better science effectiveness. So you might need an additional sage to pull it off now.(was even a better combo when elfs had nightmares). When amneia first rolled out or the age after...been a while it was effective....very effective. It allowed the non sage attackers to cast tornados with ease and the two rogues in the kingdo to decimate the chain targets even more easily after that.


    Only seen it done properly once. Like i said that was also back when elfs had nightmares. And like many strats it hinges on one or two things, go against a super active kingdom it may or may not work.
    Just my final two cents. =) "Stay inside the box too long and one becomes blind to the lines that confine them" - Some uknown(to me) wise(and prolly poor) Man once said(and that's typed.)

  5. #20
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    well realized that I keept mixing up QF and WS so no QF to kd mates.

    On topic we will see once age starts my guess is 30 professors for sage would give 34-35% boost in Alchemy, I also found that arround 110 professors gave barely over twice the cap for Military ME two ages back on +20% to ME science, so guessing sage would still need arround 80-90 to dubble as cap was maxed at 35 or 38 then and now it is 30, after twice the cap it hardly goes up at all, actually it hardly does so a good time before you reach twice the cap. Only worth it with reset as it is still 400gc/professor, only then you need twice that number for dubble effect, and really who would want to spend up to an hour a day simply resetting scientists?

  6. #21
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    Like NM, Amnesia can't be MV'd.

    Sage core can use Amnesia to stagnate enemy science, just as I've learned to use NM as a suppression tool. Let's take the BeastBlood campaign as an example, or any b2b that involves age winning ramifications. Not only does Amnesia reset science it also grants honor like any other spell. If you're moving in science and honor simultaneously and your enemy can only move in honor...

    These are campaign issues, but I've used Amnesia effectively in and out of war. In war I used Amnesia to bombard an enemy halfling rogue who at desperation massacred me, but I countered to even the wpa. Out of war I've used it against kingdoms going UF to hostile, and in all cases except the war mentioned above, the aggressor stopped within ticks of seeing the results.

    At that time I was running an undead sage in the first age of scientists and abductions. I never attack unproved so I never stacked science as easily as I could. I was so effective I felt I was the meanest flower in the garden. The potential was immensely higher than the server had anticipated. This wasn't me being a genius, I just like to experiment with builds that have little to no participation from the player base. I was happily surprised.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by StratOcastle View Post
    Like NM, Amnesia can't be MV'd.

    Sage core can use Amnesia to stagnate enemy science, just as I've learned to use NM as a suppression tool. Let's take the BeastBlood campaign as an example, or any b2b that involves age winning ramifications. Not only does Amnesia reset science it also grants honor like any other spell. If you're moving in science and honor simultaneously and your enemy can only move in honor...

    These are campaign issues, but I've used Amnesia effectively in and out of war. In war I used Amnesia to bombard an enemy halfling rogue who at desperation massacred me, but I countered to even the wpa. Out of war I've used it against kingdoms going UF to hostile, and in all cases except the war mentioned above, the aggressor stopped within ticks of seeing the results.

    At that time I was running an undead sage in the first age of scientists and abductions. I never attack unproved so I never stacked science as easily as I could. I was so effective I felt I was the meanest flower in the garden. The potential was immensely higher than the server had anticipated. This wasn't me being a genius, I just like to experiment with builds that have little to no participation from the player base. I was happily surprised.


    Is my Amnesia Cannon strategy being used now?? <3 Cute :D

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smercjd View Post
    Is my Amnesia Cannon strategy being used now?? <3 Cute :D
    Hey smercjd, nice seeing you. Amnesia is part of the story here.

    The prevailing wisdom of past ages was to abduct vs sages despite defenses because they still offered high scientist yield. This, more prominant in the wild tier. Now we have humans with cuddly bonuses and no abductions.
    Without abductions the server core across all kingdoms must use alternative measures to babysit their armies.

    Let's say it: everybody knows they have to have army out, but have to stay in kingdom size range - ergo quality per acre known as abduction. Plunder is situational and often lacking in resources to advocate its use.

    Top kingdoms would tell you trad march has always been the best choice, and I agree. Still, most kingdoms are apprehensive about casual whoring. Instead of dragging them screaming to age 77 they should consider the human sage regarding the "why?". Quality per acre. Science is the great equalizer and humans will have the highest quality in an age where land will be moved in the highest quantity for some time. And you can't abduct them.

    PS the human disadvantage of higher rune cost is no longer there; they only have to overcome the science deficit in channeling.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 15-07-2018 at 14:52.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggis View Post
    You can add scientists after the soft cap of 30 and the first few give almost full benefit at professor, and they continue to give some benefit the more you add albeit less the higher you go. So if you put 50 professors in housing, you will have more housing science than someone with prof at the softcap.
    I see. Yes I agree on that. I think "In fact you dont really lose any effectiveness on scientists until around 45 per cat." isn't accurate though. The first one above the cap is more beneficial than any previous ones. After that, each one does lose effectivness, albeit it is gradual on a curve as you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madchess View Post

    On topic we will see once age starts my guess is 30 professors for sage would give 34-35% boost in Alchemy ... so guessing sage would still need arround 80-90 to dubble as cap was maxed at 35 or 38 then and now it is 30,
    We don't need to guess though. Because (a) the hard/soft cap existed with sage last age so why would it be different in principle now and (b) the test server is open with the new age code and Poopsie has tested it. I cannot confirm first hand, of course, it is a very simple thing to test putting enough profs in alchemy to hit soft cap and seeing a 39% benefit rather than something else.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Wolf View Post
    a. humans do have the weakest wpa -15% total may not seem like much at the start of the age but it has a dire affect late age, when a non elf sage can devatate your sciences.(look at the race and personalities picked so far.)
    you're not geting devesated by an enemy saage as a human. -15% wpa isnt going to be enough to easily land spells on a human sage by an enemy sage if both run similar science mixes and raw wpa. The only effect -wpa has on a human if they aim tanky like most sages will is that enemy t/ms with super high wpa will have a slightly easier time landing MS.
    4 raw wpa human with 130% books over science cap has a mod of 3.115 to their wpa. Gives a total mod of 4*3.115*0.85=10.5825 mod wpa. Mystics can land on that and elf heretics may have a some success with fb but in general your not landing spells on that till u get to 20 mod wpa, which is VERY unlikely for non human sages to reach..even an elf sage would only reach 16.8 mod if they are on 4 wpa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Wolf View Post
    -15% wpa is a con that can not be reversed by any pro. PERIOD.
    it can be if u just mash books into channeling science. its not nw effienct but if ii were a human sage core and i knew i was going to war a elf kd in a week i'd consider puting 50 books into channeling...i have the spare books over the elf and it should counter my pently enough to make casting hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian Wolf View Post
    d.) By late age if you get amnesia'd in a war by core of non human sages, your dead in the water for the rest of the war and even rest of the age due to being behind the curve. Your tpa and most certainly wpa, as a human, will suffer greatly.
    u wont be behind rest of the age. it takes 7 days to recoup science at most, and most poeple aren't casting enough amensia to take u from all prof to all novice. More than likely a hard core amnesia run is only going to set u back 4 days in science

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganga View Post
    I dont have alot of experience casting or having amnesia cast on me in my 15 years playing.... its just odd that we need a building to counter a spell only a single personality has.
    Alternatively Universities leaving the game seems meh, perhaps universities were simply not taken out of the game because this age was just the first change to science and having to re-add them next age if more changes happen seems stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    it is a very simple thing to test putting enough profs in alchemy to hit soft cap and seeing a 39% benefit rather than something else.
    sage is a flat bonus of 30% to whatever number u'd normally get. It does in fact take the cap from an effective 30% to a 39% cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris121 View Post
    I see. Yes I agree on that. I think "In fact you dont really lose any effectiveness on scientists until around 45 per cat." isn't accurate though. The first one above the cap is more beneficial than any previous ones. After that, each one does lose effectivness, albeit it is gradual on a curve as you said.
    As for effectiveness going over the cap...As u said the first science above the cap is the most beneficial, and each one beyond that has a curve to be less effective. However that doesnt mean ANY science is actually good for you. Each professor has 411 NW next age. If the benefit given by that professor gives is less than their impact on your nw you would say that they losses effectiveness.

    i.e. lets say 1 prof gives u a 10% ME bonus but carries a 100k nw with it. If im 100 acres i could grow to 110 acres and run the same mod tpa/wpa and peasent count i had at 100 acres along with 10% additional military for a lot less than 100k nw.

    Some people have run numbers and they estimate that the above happens at about 45 science per category (i dont really agree with those calcs from my own experience but thats the claim.)

  11. #26
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    you're not geting devesated by an enemy saage as a human. -15% wpa isnt going to be enough to easily land spells on a human sage by an enemy sage if both run similar science mixes and raw wpa. The only effect -wpa has on a human if they aim tanky like most sages will is that enemy t/ms with super high wpa will have a slightly easier time landing MS.
    4 raw wpa human with 130% books over science cap has a mod of 3.115 to their wpa. Gives a total mod of 4*3.115*0.85=10.5825 mod wpa. Mystics can land on that and elf heretics may have a some success with fb but in general your not landing spells on that till u get to 20 mod wpa, which is VERY unlikely for non human sages to reach..even an elf sage would only reach 16.8 mod if they are on 4 wpa.
    Bishop once mater of factly told me that magic/thief effectiveness is not equal to TPA/WPA and is actually worse, i know all the intel sites like to use it like they are equal but in my experience what bishop said runs true.
    Last edited by Ganga; 15-07-2018 at 23:13.

  12. #27
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    Paladin casting scientific insight on human sage should be cool.

    I'm glad we don't have devs who might call it science grab bag.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
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  13. #28
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    Well sounds more convincing than the argument Popsie said so on discord, still I'll maintain that to much nw from science is bad and even at flat rate +30% with everyone potentially reaching max it is not going to give you an edge against people who is dedicated to one role if you are not dedicating yourself to one role but trying to play as everything.

    If you are confident in running sage that is for you, I know I am going to aim for something else to match my playing style, and that it probably will be more fun for me than going sage. I might even skip on human if it gets to be to mainstream since I'm a big fan of orc and avian, but still in the process of deciding my approach, I'll probably know when I see the kingdom I land in.

  14. #29
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    Manipulating your nw via sci will be a thing, but only a few kds need worry about that methinks :P I feel people are falling in the sage mindset too easy (see that hu/sage crowd in survey of the world).
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  15. #30
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    Get out of the strategy forum avenger.go play in the tavern or something.

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