Age 82 Proposed Changes - Feedback and Suggestions

[Ganga]

I'd like to see the science curve be less punishing. It would be nice to do something more interesting in science than just rainbow out 600k-1000k in every category by EoA

[BigShotFancyMan]

Figured I'd toss my 2 cents in.

Avian: my main problem with avian is not that it's out of balance (I'd need to see sims to know) but that it feels like its identity has shifted somewhat away from the "fast attacker" to the "burnout attacker". When I read its bonuses and penalties, my first reaction isn't "nice, I could see building a composition around avian speed", it's "holy **** avians are gonna burn out faster than a single parent working 3 jobs". The primary focus, intentionally or not, has seemed to shift toward their increased casualties, including a direct penalty, the gains penalty which is a penalty to casualties per gains, and balancing around bloodlust, which vastly increases casualties (yes I know the -gains is to offset the ambush protection but the point still stands). I'd prefer to see them stay as the fast attackers that fill in their land quickly but can't muster as much offense due to no horses. Also, seems like BL has needed to stay on them to let them keep up with the huge offense of orc, so I'll propose orc tuned down so avian can take a break from BL

-20% attack time
+20% BR
-20% military training time
+10% ME
-50% ambush losses

no horses or stables
-10% gains on attacks

8/2 elite 9nw 900gc
fanat, gp

Dwarf: just far too weak to be played. They need an elite that lets them keep up at least some, but also lets them tank up as is their way of things. I also like the idea of them having resistance to ops a la CS/RM, but especially with no WT it doesn't seem like they're actually that resilient. I'd also like to nerf faery further by keeping CS/RM out of their hands, so I'll propose this adjustment

+20% Building Efficiency
-40% Building Construction Time
-50% Building Raze Cost
+25% Building Credits from attacks
20% of enemy spells and ops fail

+100% food consumption

8/4 elite 10nw 1000gc
GP, IA

Elf: seems reasonable in general, but +10% ME and +1 dspec is way too much early age. I moved the 10% ME to avian to keep the dspec here. Also going to add GP to make up for that (worth discussing if elf should have casting on mates AND gp, but whatever)

+1 Mana Recovery per Tick
+1 Defensive Specialist Strength
Can Cast Self Spells on Others

+15% explore cost

8/3 elite 9nw 900gc
GP, MF, MA, Chastity

Fae: fine as is. Got buffed realistically but I'm removing CS and RM from it and going to tune BL down, and it also can't pair with +1 ospec warrior anymore.

Halfling: I just generally don't like the halfling no hospitals but it has attacker bonuses but a significant bonus is to homes which you don't normally want to run much as an attacker and also that means more troops to get the same military, but all those losses and having to retrain weaker per unit troops generally. End of run-on sentence, but yeah generally just doesn't feel like it has a clear identity of how it's really supposed to work its bonuses all together. I'm just gonna leave it alone other than to say I'm moving 2/2 soldiers to orc to go along with free draft.

Human: Not sure what +10% defensive TPA does, but in general human feels underwhelming. In order to keep up, without the warrior pairing, i think they either need +1 ospec back, or +1 ponies. -25% wages seems to be the go-to econ buff for them, which is fine so that they don't have insane eowcf. And science is a fine bonus too, but I'd like to move SI off of cleric over to human and force people to pick hu/cl if they want broadly applied SI.

+1 horses
+15% scientists generated
+15% books produced
-25% wages

-1% mana/tick

4/7 elite 9.5 nw 1000gc
QF, SI

Orc: Orc looks pretty nuts right now. It was already pretty solid last age, arguably the strongest attacker, and it definitely got buffed while other comparable stuff got nerfed (human for example). Its offense is just plain too high, especially with that extra 5% pop which feels pretty out of place. I'd move bloodlust back over to orc as well as tone it back down to its old values (10% OME, 10% enemy casualties, 15% own casualties), which again is an indirect nerf to faery too, which is probably needed. Could also see 8/3 elite here along with bringing back +gains.

Free draft
2/2 soldiers
+15% enemy casualties

20% spells and ops fail
+15% enemy spell and op damage

9/3 elite 10nw 1050gc
Bloodlust, aggression

Undead: Dunno how they will fare without seeing sims, but I just don't really like the conversions/can't train elites design. It forces spec penalties so it's not too broken early age, but that forces something like pop bonus so it's not garbage mid-late age, and in general it's just hard to reason about its balance. If people like it as is, then keep it like this, otherwise take out all of that and have something like the below. Also, not sure if prisoners decay into soldiers is a bonus or a penalty :shrug:. It's interesting flavor, but does it actually work well gameplay-wise?

-35% casualties
No food needed
Spreads plague

basic theivery only
-15% sci effect

10/3 elite 10.5nw 1100gc
AD, Chastity, Vermin

Artisan, heretic, mystic, rogue seem roughly ok (no idea about artisan, really but I'm not spending time on it).

Tact: Mostly seems fine, but I'd like cleric to be the pitfaller and war spoils seems like it naturally fits with tactician who can use the faster attack times to judiciously use WS when it can be lower risk.

-15% Attack Time
+20% Building credits (or just more siege sci?)
Accurate Espionage
+25% Siege Science Effectiveness
800 solds/creds
fanat, War spoils

Cleric: Not sure what this little bit of valor sci is doing there, but I kind of want to move it to WH anyway. SI is moving over to human and I'd like PF to land here and have cleric sort of own the casualties world in the personalities and leave science to artisan/human. I'd really like to put a touch more magic stuff like +guilds or channeling, or even add shielding here, but that's up to the devs whether they want that direction.

Immune to plague
-35% casualties
Support spells
800 solds/creds
IS, Wrathful Smite, PF, DS, AD

War Hero: Wow this seems super strong. But it seems a little weird that war hero has some strong sustain with extra credits and conversions, but then warrior gets a ton of training speed, which is oriented around sustain. I'd like to make WH the reload boss and warrior back to more hulk smash. Valor and heroism give extra ability to pop out troops quickly, as does PI, and +1 ospec is a nice base offensive bonus that doesn't feel too OP on WH because you're converting them either to offensive elites which you'd want already anyway instead of the ospecs, or to defensive elites which hits your offensive capabilities pretty hard. This also makes for a good dragonslayer personality (so maybe dragons might need +10% HP to compensate / make those capabilities that much more valuable). Also leaning toward removing honor bonus since it's so volatile on an attacker personality

+1 ospec
+30% valor and heroism sci
+20% spec creds in war
conversions
800 elites
PI (renamed to Hero's Inspiration)

Warrior: feels very weak in its current form. Sure you can train fast but the things you're training aren't strong enough with just this. I'm more inclined to make warrior the hulk smasher a la

+15% OME
+15% gains on massacres
full conquest access
-25% casuatlies on conquests
800 solds creds
Not sure if any spells land here

Really like all of it except confused on BL on Orc. 2nd highest elite and extra 10% OME. I may have had BL with 20%, but people freaked out. Even if this is 10%, it’s 10% on stronger elites. Using WH, free draft, free specs, free leets....I’ll think I can afford 15% casualties. I’d change this and take the rest.

[North Southland]

If your going to make lots of changes at least make them something which makes races able to play differently. In the end many have no real effect like the halfling prisoner bonus, as they still aren't a good attacker and they are forced into the same single role.

I hate to break it to you like this, but the halfling prisoner bonus is really good if you're attacking at some point. It adds a lot of offense, which is vital for a race that doesn't really pack a punch, and it's somewhat self-sustaining. I try to fill up with prisoners before wars for this very reason.

Figured I'd toss my 2 cents in.

Halfling: I just generally don't like the halfling no hospitals but it has attacker bonuses but a significant bonus is to homes which you don't normally want to run much as an attacker

Why not? More houses mean more birthrate, which I can't get enough of since, as an attacker, I get fireballed more or less constantly. Also, more birthrate is good if you don't have hospitals and if you have cheap-ish troops to train.

Not to mention that more houses = more peons = more cash (or a higher draft = more troops).

and also that means more troops to get the same military

That's kind of the point of Halfling. That's also why they get 2/2 soldiers and town watch. It's the cheap mass unit race.

Human: (…) but I'd like to move SI off of cleric over to human and force people to pick hu/cl if they want broadly applied SI.

-1% mana/tick

hu/cl with that penalty makes absolutely no sense. Humans can barely get enough mana to cast self-spells, nevermind support spells.

Orc: Orc looks pretty nuts right now. (…) I'd move bloodlust back over to orc (!) (…) along with bringing back +gains.

Free draft
2/2 soldiers (!!)
+15% enemy casualties

20% spells and ops fail
+15% enemy spell and op damage

9/3 elite 10nw 1050gc
Bloodlust (!!!), aggression (!!!!)

Parentheses and exclamation points are mine. I don't understand why they get all these bonuses (BL, even if a toned-down version; more gains; stronger, free soldiers!) if they're already way too strong.

Undead: Dunno how they will fare without seeing sims, but I just don't really like the conversions/can't train elites design. It forces spec penalties so it's not too broken early age, but that forces something like pop bonus so it's not garbage mid-late age, and in general it's just hard to reason about its balance. If people like it as is, then keep it like this, otherwise take out all of that and have something like the below.

Add one vote to the "I like undead" tally.

Also, not sure if prisoners decay into soldiers is a bonus or a penalty :shrug:. It's interesting flavor, but does it actually work well gameplay-wise?

I think it does. Soldiers have more value than prisoners, if only due to their versatility. And undead need more soldiers (actually, more peasants) to make up for the ones they can't kidnap.

Cleric: Not sure what this little bit of valor sci is doing there

Killing dragons faster, in line with their support role. I also don't agree with the other changes.

[Avenger]

I think it does. Soldiers have more value than prisoners, if only due to their versatility. And undead need more soldiers (actually, more peasants) to make up for the ones they can't kidnap.

lmao

[kushinade]

Still want this idea for undead:


Undead

Bonuses
Prisoners decay over time to be reborn as soldiers (neat idea, would be bad if it does it when you're full already though)
Some specialists convert to elites on Traditional Marches
No food needed
Spreads and is immune to the Plague
+1 Offense Specialist Strength

Penalties
Only Basic Thievery Intel Operations available
-25% Science Effectiveness
-1 Defensive Specialist Strength
Can not train elites

Spell book: Animate Dead, Chastity, Vermin
Elite: Offense: 4 Defense: 7 Networth: 9.0 Cost: N/A
Soldiers: Offense: 1 Defense: 1

That would be more fun to me. Still wish they could make animate dead into a magical version of propaganda only as a fireball. that offsets the thievery penalties while making it so if they chose a magical sub option they could use it.


Edit: Or use my Queen's suggestion
We fight 5 days in Age 82 (Mon-Fri) then go to age 83. Hopefully a week will have better changes.
I'm being baited with lingerie pics to put this suggestion up. XD