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Thread: Elite Value mods

  1. #1

    Elite Value mods

    I really enjoyed this change in Genesis and I am happy to see it proposed for WoL. There's a psuedo-layer there in my opinion. If there is anyway to create this as a choice it'd create an actual layer to the game. For instance, you'd like to run heretic with a +3 to offense instead of defense, or even split that bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leg Leo View Post
    I really enjoyed this change in Genesis and I am happy to see it proposed for WoL. There's a psuedo-layer there in my opinion. If there is anyway to create this as a choice it'd create an actual layer to the game. For instance, you'd like to run heretic with a +3 to offense instead of defense, or even split that bonus.
    I'd tend to support this for a couple of reasons that come to mind.

    1. While Faery Attacker isn't the optimal choice for an Attacker as I see it, the new change basically knocks it completely out of the equation, because the Faery is getting offence on an Elite unit that is intended to be defensive by design, and has no more offence than the O-Spec. Faery Attackers depend on the high-yield Elite Defence in order to function. So the choice to use Defence here strikes me as mandatory.

    2. Similarly, something like Human Rogue (something I see pretty often) would be diminished without being able to choose your Elite boost. The appeal of something like Human Rogue is being able to do Attacker-Thief; but with all the Elite points going into defence...the Elite is pseudo-worthless.

    3. The +2 Offence and +1 Defence for the "Economy" options seems to needlessly make them weaker than the other Attacker options - does anyone really use Elites defensively or count on their defence for stopping Ambushes? I think it would need to be +2 Offence AND Defence for me to consider this even with either of the other +3 options.


    So anyways to summarize I like the proposal of different Elite values overall, but without being able to choose them manually I think it actually detracts from the amount of strategic choices in the game rather than adding to the amount of choices as one would expect.



    EDIT: I thought about #1 and #2 even more - and the more I think about it, it comes down to this: races that already have a mostly offensively-classed Elite (like Avian) are going to want more offence on that Elite or it'll be fairly inefficient, whereas races that already have a mostly defensively-classed Elite (like Faery) are going to want more defence on it to make it more efficient. Or in other words, as nice as it sounds to mix up Elite values with personalities - at the end of the day, the most desirable Elite type is basically the Elite values we had for the previous age, so there's no point in having the Elite mixing at all.

    The exception to this would be Dark Elf's 9/9 - so it could potentially be offensive or defensive, and I think this is the only setup under which this system makes any sense.
    Last edited by Gidoza; 18-11-2020 at 02:52.

  3. #3
    Great breakdown
    Discord: Red Leg Leo#6254 aka Fancy

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    I thought about this even more, and came up with a different idea.

    Rather than having personality-based Elite values, why don't we try personality-based Specialist values? The idea here being that defensive-based personalities get a spec that defensive, and offensive-based personalities get a spec that's offensive. The Elite would still be offensive or defensive as usual; however, this way, one of the main units is being properly tailored to the personality type rather than potentially getting an Elite with effectively no specialty at all.

  5. #5
    They’ve done this before with ospecs recently. I think warrior had a +1 OS. I don’t think it’d lend to province customization anymore than the way elite value mods are being proposed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gidoza View Post
    1. While Faery Attacker isn't the optimal choice for an Attacker as I see it, the new change basically knocks it completely out of the equation, because the Faery is getting offence on an Elite unit that is intended to be defensive by design, and has no more offence than the O-Spec. Faery Attackers depend on the high-yield Elite Defence in order to function. So the choice to use Defence here strikes me as mandatory.

    Na, im pretty sure that all the Faerie circle players will dance with joy of a balanced 10/10 Elite and that isnt counting the OME personality bonus. The spells they have will make up any difference if it be on the offense or defense.
    A outerworld vagabond Elf traveling this world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Na, im pretty sure that all the Faerie circle players will dance with joy of a balanced 10/10 Elite and that isnt counting the OME personality bonus. The spells they have will make up any difference if it be on the offense or defense.
    I appreciate the pushback! (And I'm glad someone else posted here so we can have an actual discussion!)

    Balanced Elites are useful...but surely it's a limiting factor on how optimized a province can be, even with all Faerie spells?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gidoza View Post
    I appreciate the pushback! (And I'm glad someone else posted here so we can have an actual discussion!)

    Balanced Elites are useful...but surely it's a limiting factor on how optimized a province can be, even with all Faerie spells?
    You have to see it this way, Balanced is still an optimization. Offense means your no longer optimized in defense. Balanaced is just the mid point between offense and defense so you ignore the extremes of both.

    Sure it is hard to break the T/M in defense, but 99% of attackers out there is easily breakable being they are optimized in offense and not defense especially once they send their elites out to attack. Also one needs to realize your attacks are limited to how many generals you have and your return time. It really dont matter if you have 1million offense, being you only have 5 attacks. It isnt like sending more military can net you more acres even if you can break someone 10 times your size given the NW restrictions. They have to cherry pick their targets though, unlike hulk attackers that dont care.

    It is a different playstyle and a different train of thought, people who play differently is hard to pick up the style unless they spend an age learning it.
    Last edited by RedPanda; 20-11-2020 at 16:13.
    A outerworld vagabond Elf traveling this world.
    From the world of Thardferr, herald of the Eldar Elven Kingdoms
    Elven Roles sense Age 63: Sage, Mystic, Rogue, Tactician, Cleric, Merchant, Heretic, War Hero, Warrior, Paladin, Undead, Artisan, Raider

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    You have to see it this way, Balanced is still an optimization. Offense means your no longer optimized in defense. Balanaced is just the mid point between offense and defense so you ignore the extremes of both.

    Sure it is hard to break the T/M in defense, but 99% of attackers out there is easily breakable being they are optimized in offense and not defense especially once they send their elites out to attack. Also one needs to realize your attacks are limited to how many generals you have and your return time. It really dont matter if you have 1million offense, being you only have 5 attacks. It isnt like sending more military can net you more acres even if you can break someone 10 times your size given the NW restrictions. They have to cherry pick their targets though, unlike hulk attackers that dont care.

    It is a different playstyle and a different train of thought, people who play differently is hard to pick up the style unless they spend an age learning it.
    Thanks - I appreciate this!

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    While I was a bit frustrated with how the elite value is going to fluctuate based on personality, like you, I also recognize the fact that it works as a way to balance personalities in a way that, for example, just adding points to the spec doesn't (remember the age when warrior AND human had +1 ospecs? It was wild, and not in a good way).

    I think that the right way to go forward is to give us more personality options, so you can have an offensively-oriented and a defensive thief, for example. Which means that raider should stay and be spun in that direction. More races, and especially more races with defensive elites would be great, too.

    But I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Southland View Post
    While I was a bit frustrated with how the elite value is going to fluctuate based on personality, like you, I also recognize the fact that it works as a way to balance personalities in a way that, for example, just adding points to the spec doesn't (remember the age when warrior AND human had +1 ospecs? It was wild, and not in a good way).

    I think that the right way to go forward is to give us more personality options, so you can have an offensively-oriented and a defensive thief, for example. Which means that raider should stay and be spun in that direction. More races, and especially more races with defensive elites would be great, too.

    But I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me.
    I generally agree with you and this is the reason I'd be disappointed if Raider was removed. More to that point - I preferred the Raider of the previous age that had a Thief loss reduction, which very truly yielded an A/T strategy.

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    As one of the loons that plays Faery attacker with some frequency, I'm definitely sacking the personality to get the defensive elite. But then, I'm also the person who is whining every age about how elites are wildly overpriced. (In NW. Because NW is what matters. Cost doesn't mean money at all to me.) And since you can't have an elite out on both attack and defense, I don't think they are priced well for their power.

    I grant flexibility matters sometimes, but rarely does a pure attacker leave "useful offense" home just to get some defense, and so only one stat counts at a time most of the time. Under than measure, faery ideally would turn off conversions (usually) and just use specs for defense, because the elites are worse than the specs. (I'm also the loon that plays pure spec most of the time. Or at least, until they jammed elites I don't want down my throat. Yes, as elf this age I really do release down to 1epa or lower at the end of every war.)


    Given the bad efficiency of elites, there is really only two paths I see working for attackers. Take a race with a solid elite and stack +3 on it (or if you really insist, cleric). Conversions in war will lower your NW efficiency but will increase your raw offense, offsetting losses. This is the conventional attacker.

    The other path (the one I plan) is to commit fully to the "convert to defense" attacker. Which then means Faery with a +3 def so that you get at least ok efficiency out of your elites. Comparing the loss of efficiency vs. the value of an attacking personality... I think the personality is less important and will pick a +3 def and salvage what advantage I can from it. (I mean, mystic lets you keep all those spells up and saves at least 10% land - not that much worse a land savings that some of the other personalities.) If you aren't taken out quickly, your defense goes up a lot and you threaten UB, forcing the enemy to either chain a high def prov or take you on with T/Ms (against all those defensive spells hehe). This is the "UB threat" attacker, although the offense will become lame if you do go UB so it isn't as dangerous as a conventional attacker that goes UB. (But is still worse than an UB T/M, which has even worse offense.)


    There might be a path to "UB threat" attacker using a +3 offense elite on Faery - send the elites till you try to go UB by keeping them home - but I'd rather the raw power than the "flex". And maybe someone can put together a similar setup for non-Faery, though it gets a lot harder for the other races since part of the appeal is how hard a Faery attacker is for T/Ms to deal with. (MA, Shield, DShield, RM, CS, ug... gotta open with MV till most of that is gone. Well, after the storms/greed that clears the MA.)


    In general - I think this "personalities buff elites" is a kinda pointless change, not because it is bad, but because elites are bad, and so choosing a buff to thing you (still) don't want doesn't matter that much, and is all about limiting the damage they (the elites) do to you. Now, if elite NW values were tuned down between .5-2 NW per (depending on how over-inflated each one is) this would get a lot more exciting since you'd actually be trying to keep at least some of the elites.
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    They are efficient in population usage, but inefficient in cost and NW. Likewise the specs are opposite of the elite in that regard. Depends on what you need at the time.

    TBH, I think the NW calculation of units needs to be redone, an example is like the DnD pointbuy system, anything past certain stat costs more per stat.


    Did the devs discribe how the Personality stat changes affect nw?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gidoza View Post
    I generally agree with you and this is the reason I'd be disappointed if Raider was removed. More to that point - I preferred the Raider of the previous age that had a Thief loss reduction, which very truly yielded an A/T strategy.
    I played a Raider this age, and it was very interesting and fun once I got the hang of the play style. Was sad that the raider was removed T.T
    Last edited by RedPanda; 20-11-2020 at 22:33.
    A outerworld vagabond Elf traveling this world.
    From the world of Thardferr, herald of the Eldar Elven Kingdoms
    Elven Roles sense Age 63: Sage, Mystic, Rogue, Tactician, Cleric, Merchant, Heretic, War Hero, Warrior, Paladin, Undead, Artisan, Raider

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